Help with my white pine

[MichaelS]

Could it be poor watering last summer?

Could be. Even a lack of water kills roots and leads to rot. Not as common as over watering though.

 

[Adair M]

Perhaps they were too far gone?

Very likely.

 

[Adamantium]

Could be. Even a lack of water kills roots and leads to rot. Not as common as over watering though.

Would the wisest course of action be to leave it in it’s nursery pot and try to bring it back to health this year? Or repot it?

 

[River's Edge]

Would the wisest course of action be to leave it in it’s nursery pot and try to bring it back to health this year? Or repot it?

Identifying the problem and its cause is the first step. It would be best to get an experienced Bonsai person to look at it in person. The pictures are not so clear cut and the tree, roots, soil examination would reveal a lot more. Call up the local Bonsai club and ask for help.

 

[River's Edge]

I must disagree. Put it in a deeper pot and/or use nothing but the larger particle size substrate instead.

A "drainage layer" simply elevates the saturation zone = exactly what one doesn't want in this circumstance.

Not always true, the perched water effect only occurs if the particle size difference is too great! Creating a drainage layer using the proper particle size variation is very effective. The research has clearly shown the change in " perched effect" given different particle size. This is not a matter of opinion. Depending on the root structure using nothing but larger particle size is often a poor option and ill advised.

 

[Adamantium]

Identifying the problem and its cause is the first step. It would be best to get an experienced Bonsai person to look at it in person. The pictures are not so clear cut and the tree, roots, soil examination would reveal a lot more. Call up the local Bonsai club and ask for help.

Unfortunately, that's near impossible. I'm in Manhattan, and the closest clubs are far enough away that I would need a car.

I'm hoping it's just natural yellowing. Someone had mentioned that pines tend to do this, and then green back up.

Roots looked good. Lots of old roots with some small, white, newly formed roots growing.

I guess I could try an H2O2 spray to be safe.

Unfortunately, I'm kind of left to just the internet for help figuring this out.

 

[Adamantium]

Identifying the problem and its cause is the first step. It would be best to get an experienced Bonsai person to look at it in person. The pictures are not so clear cut and the tree, roots, soil examination would reveal a lot more. Call up the local Bonsai club and ask for help.

Do you happen to know the difference between yellowing at the tips, and yellowing at the base of the needles?

 

[River's Edge]

Unfortunately, that's near impossible. I'm in Manhattan, and the closest clubs are far enough away that I would need a car.

I'm hoping it's just natural yellowing. Someone had mentioned that pines tend to do this, and then green back up.

Roots looked good. Lots of old roots with some small, white, newly formed roots growing.

I guess I could try an H2O2 spray to be safe.

Unfortunately, I'm kind of left to just the internet for help figuring this out.

First off what the picture shows is not normal. They do turn yellow and shed but not in that manner. The needles appear to show some signs of needlecast but the pictures as I said before are not clear enough.

 

[Lazylightningny]

I would de-pot it, stick it in the ground, and leave it alone for a couple of years until it rebounds. If it lives, you'll have to rebuild the root ball from scratch.

Having said that, white pines do tend to shed old needles, usually in the fall and winter.

 

[Adamantium]

I would de-pot it, stick it in the ground, and leave it alone for a couple of years until it rebounds. If it lives, you'll have to rebuild the root ball from scratch.

I so badly wish that was an option. It's currently living on my fire escape.... No ground available anywhere.

Think H2O2 spray would help?

 

[Adamantium]

First off what the picture shows is not normal. They do turn yellow and shed but not in that manner. The needles appear to show some signs of needlecast but the pictures as I said before are not clear enough.

Drat.... Pretty much all the needles are slightly yellow at the tips. It could be needle blight, I guess.

Think H2O2 spray would help? ?‍

 

[River's Edge]

Drat.... Pretty much all the needles are slightly yellow at the tips. It could be needle blight, I guess.

Think H2O2 spray would help? ?‍

I believe you have posted your concern and pictures in various threads and received several suggestions. Perhaps it is time to pick a course of action. Best of luck

 

[Adamantium]

I believe you have posted your concern and pictures in various threads and received several suggestions. Perhaps it is time to pick a course of action. Best of luck

I just haven't gotten much in the way of a solid answer :/ I understand this is for lack of clear information, but it makes it quite tough to decide. Some people say buy fungicide, others say use H2O2, and yet others say it's normal yellowing. I really wish I had a bonsai club right about now...

Thanks for your well wishes. I paid a pretty penny for this tree, so fingers crossed I can turn it around.

 

[0soyoung]

Not always true, the perched water effect only occurs if the particle size difference is too great! Creating a drainage layer using the proper particle size variation is very effective. The research has clearly shown the change in " perched effect" given different particle size. This is not a matter of opinion. Depending on the root structure using nothing but larger particle size is often a poor option and ill advised.

Can you give me a reference citation?
I would like to review the methodology and see the data.

 

[River's Edge]

Can you give me a reference citation?
I would like to review the methodology and see the data.

I recall provide some references when you questioned this previously several months ago. Basically the perched water effect occurs when a less permeable layer is below a more permeable layer. It also occurs due to the effect of water rising due to surface contact between particles. The more surface contact the greater the effect. Container depth also alters the effect. The key for Bonsai purposes is understanding the Physical properties of Container media for Bonsai purposes. The amount of water held varies greatly with the type of media, Organic much more so than inorganic. Smaller particles more so than larger particles. Consistent size of particles give consistent contact patterns. The goal is to attain proper mix of air porosity and water retention.
I use inorganic media, layers of similar particle size and porosity spacing. With only slightly larger particle spacing and consistent shape layers below.
A great article entitled Physical Properties of Container Media written by James Atland Phd, Oregon State university addresses this particular topic quite well. The data that i recall from previous research was also out of Oregon State and if my memory serves me right the table indicated that if the drainage layer particle size did not increase by more than 10% there would be no discernible increase in the perched water table.
The use of inorganic, irregularity shaped particles of similar size, in consistent layers that change in size gradually from small to medium to large on the bottom is specifically designed to provide the maximum benefit of aeration, moisture retention and drainage.
I understand fully that the use of organic, fine or easily decomposing soil components would not work with a drainage layer. They simply create impermeable layers too quickly, as well they are prone to poor drainage, poor aeration and saturated or dry spots. However it should be noted that i have not reccomended those media.

 

[0soyoung]

I recall provide some references when you questioned this previously several months ago.

Sorry, Frank. I don't recall asking this before, but I'm getting old and forgetful.
Thanks for your forbearance with me.

 

[Japonicus]

Thanks for all the advice. I’m going to bare root it tomorrow and hope for the best. What do dead/rotted roots look like so I can cut them off.

EDIT: Oh phooey. I missed the entire 2nd page oops
I am very surprised nobody suggested to use mycorrhizal fungi when potting this tree especially if you're bare rooting it . Followed by liquid rooting enhancer (B-1 or K-L-N) and superthrive.
Without the fungi...I would not have bare rooted it. Rooting hormone doesn't hurt either.

What did your roots and soil look like when you got in there?
Dead roots are black with no spring, no white underneath. You will know.
Rotten roots generally spongy squishy, black and in warmer weather have gnat like insects about.

 

[Japonicus]

I could have sworn the Pine forum page showed this thread with only 10 replies, so my post was
made at bottom of page 1 :doh: sorry about that. Now where's my specs...astigmatism

 

[MichaelS]

Would the wisest course of action be to leave it in it’s nursery pot and try to bring it back to health this year? Or repot it?

The only way to know that is to take it out and look. Post a close up pic if you can.

 

[Adamantium]

The only way to know that is to take it out and look. Post a close up pic if you can.

I actually wound up repotting it. A shocking number of roots were rotted and just fell away when lightly touched. I went down to a large bonsai pot, leaving the core root ball untouched, but pruning away quite a bit. Fingers crossed!