Help with my white pine

River's Edge

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Thanks for all the advice. I’m going to bare root it tomorrow and hope for the best. What do dead/rotted roots look like so I can cut them off.
Black, soft and squishy. In a bad situation they often just pull away. Start slow and cut away until you reach healthy brown roots with white core. Use a chopstick to carefully separate the dead roots from the healthy ones. Remove all dead roots and any other decomposing material. When repotting work soil carefully and gently between the roots if needed and secure the tree in the pot. In a severe case i would repot in pure pumice to allow for faster root recovery. If you put a layer of larger particles on the bottom, the drainage will be better and there will be less likliehood of the roots sitting in water in case of overwatering or extra rainfall. The combination of removing decomposing material, improved aeration and drainage is what gives the tree a chance to recover.
 

0soyoung

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Thanks for all the advice. I’m going to bare root it tomorrow and hope for the best. What do dead/rotted roots look like so I can cut them off.
OMG! You've never done anything like this before, have you? Congratulations on diving in, but ...

Tug on them. Dead fine roots just come off. The outer 'shell' of thicker roots will slide off.

Dead roots are dark brown to black
Live roots are brown to white in color.

Thank your lucky stars if you see white tips on roots - these are very much alive and growing!!!
 

0soyoung

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If you put a layer of larger particles on the bottom, the drainage will be better and there will be less likliehood of the roots sitting in water in case of overwatering or extra rainfall.
I must disagree. Put it in a deeper pot and/or use nothing but the larger particle size substrate instead.

A "drainage layer" simply elevates the saturation zone = exactly what one doesn't want in this circumstance.
 

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Thanks for all the advice. I’m going to bare root it tomorrow and hope for the best. What do dead/rotted roots look like so I can cut them off.
It's grafted onto black pine so that is in your favour, but to bare root a week tree is toying with disaster. I have never saved a sick pine tree by bare rooting no matter what I did as after care. In my experience you first need to bring it away from the brink. A good way - or one way - to do this is to remove it from the pot immediately and let it sit without it's pot for several hours. Shake of a little of the old lose soil and then carefully divide the root ball in half with your fingers. Don't cut away dead roots but just pull off any rotten parts than come away easily. After that plant it in an unfired regular clay pot. As small as will fit the roots. If you manage to open up the roo ball into two (like a butterfly) work in some of you soil in there so it reaches up as close as possible to the base of the trunk. The best soil in my experience for reviving these is a 50/50 mixture of old pine needles (from under a healthy tree at a local park or garden. The more white mycorrhizae present the better) and coarse quartz sand. (1 to 4mm). Stuff this into the pot and don't water for a couple of days. Then water once and not again until it is almost crispy dry. It takes quite a while and a lot of patience to bring it back to health. Place in a very airy/bright spot but watch it does not over heat. Bright light encourages mycorrhizae. No amount of fungicides have ever helped in my experience. All this assumes you have root trouble of course!
 

MichaelS

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I must disagree. Put it in a deeper pot.

A "drainage layer" simply elevates the saturation zone = exactly what one doesn't want in this circumstance.
Agreed. A deep terra cotta pot is called for.
 

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It's grafted onto black pine so that is in your favour, but to bare root a week tree is toying with disaster. I have never saved a sick pine tree by bare rooting no matter what I did as after care. In my experience you first need to bring it away from the brink. A good way - or one way - to do this is to remove it from the pot immediately and let it sit without it's pot for several hours. Shake of a little of the old lose soil and then carefully divide the root ball in half with your fingers. Don't cut away dead roots but just pull off any rotten parts than come away easily. After that plant it in an unfired regular clay pot. As small as will fit the roots. If you manage to open up the roo ball into two (like a butterfly) work in some of you soil in there so it reaches up as close as possible to the base of the trunk. The best soil in my experience for reviving these is a 50/50 mixture of old pine needles (from under a healthy tree at a local park or garden. The more white mycorrhizae present the better) and coarse quartz sand. (1 to 4mm). Stuff this into the pot and don't water for a couple of days. Then water once and not again until it is almost crispy dry. It takes quite a while and a lot of patience to bring it back to health. Place in a very airy/bright spot but watch it does not over heat. Bright light encourages mycorrhizae. No amount of fungicides have ever helped in my experience. All this assumes you have root trouble of course!
Interesting approach, never tried that. It sounds like a well reasoned technique. I have had good success with bare rooting. Our climate can be very wet and so i have had some practise with it. Terra cotta unfired is seldom used in our area due to the freeze/thaw/break cycle. Likely not so much of a problem in Australia. I was taught by a very respected professional to remove all dead roots and cut away the dead down to the healthy. On what basis do you advise not cutting away the dead roots? Why would you choose to leave dead decaying root ends?
 

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I had a Scots pine nose dive last summer i did a bare root repot and it recovered beautifully. Different species but you don't know until you try. Mine had around 70% of its roots just fall off during the repot. Total decayed mush, I agree with the drastic situation, drastic solution comment. Michael s is a pine whiz for sure and he has a lot of experience on me. But in my one similar experience the bare root worked for me
 

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Yes this is my first time with this problem. I hate how this is happening to my favorite/most expensive pine. If only this was happening to my ficus’ or elms’ I wouldn’t be so upset or stressed out lol. There’s a lot of great advice discussed on this post and I greatly appreciate every comment. I plan on repotting in the same pot after it’s been washed/cleaned and with a pumice/lava rock/ prebonsai soil mix (sifted of course) because it is the only thing I have available. I really hope it survives. This situation right now really puts me in my place on where I stand with my knowledge of taking care of pine trees. I love them, but maybe I’m not ready to train/keep them as bonsai until I have better knowledge. I’ll update with photos when I repot the tree
 

MichaelS

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. On what basis do you advise not cutting away the dead roots? Why would you choose to leave dead decaying root ends?

A couple of reasons. Last time I had this problem I started chasing back the rot in the roots until I could see clean tissue (no brown centre) but by that time there were no feeder roots left and the tree quickly died. Other times I have simply repotted affected pines and done nothing much else and had them recover. Sometimes it's very difficult to tell the difference between a root which is totally dead and one which may be weakened but still possibly curable (perhaps only partly infected) but we (I) sometimes tend to just cut off whatever does not have a white tip or looks brown and can easily go beyond the point of no return. That's why I suggested to only remove what comes off with a slight pull and leave the rest. First, I believe that it is next to impossible to completely remove all sites of infection and second, I believe that once the roots are dried out (from the outside, not completely) and introduced to a healthy environment (vigorous mycorrhizae which have anti - pathogenic properties) the rot can be arrested almost immediately. The after care is very important. That is - just enough water to stop the tree from drying off completely until we see new growth. I think the deep pots mentioned by Osoyoung above is important too. Deep and just wide enough for the roots seems to encourage health rather than shallow wide ones. This is really from my personal observations and gut feeling rather than anything scientifically proven. But we know that pathogens are ever present and opportunistic and quickly take advantage of the right environment for them so by changing the environment and introducing an inhibitor (myco) they are controlled. - IF we get in early enough!
I should also mention.....I grow orchids as well and I have noticed - by growing some in transparent pots - that although a root may suddenly die and rot, it does not affect the others which may continue growing right next to the dead one. This means that the rotting is just a natural decomposition of a dead root (from whatever cause) and not an actual infection. This may actually be the problem with a tree with dead and dying roots as well. Not an actual pathogenic infection but and environmental issue leading to root death. Also! :D There was some comment from a conifer nursery at one time where they mentioned the rate of root rot/death went up in direct relation with an increase in pH over 5.5 (I think).
 
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Potawatomi13

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and introduced to a healthy environment (vigorous mycorrhizae which have anti - pathogenic properties) the rot can be arrested almost immediately.

How to know which is proper one for particular tree? Each tree needs some kind special to it;).
 

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@MichaelS

Does this look like a problem similar to OP's?

Someone told me it's kind of a common pine thing to have happen, but will green back up in Spring. Sound correct to you?
 

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River's Edge

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A couple of reasons. Last time I had this problem I started chasing back the rot in the roots until I could see clean tissue (no brown centre) but by that time there were no feeder roots left and the tree quickly died. Other times I have simply repotted affected pines and done nothing much else and had them recover. Sometimes it's very difficult to tell the difference between a root which is totally dead and one which may be weakened but still possibly curable (perhaps only partly infected) but we (I) sometimes tend to just cut off whatever does not have a white tip or looks brown and can easily go beyond the point of no return. That's why I suggested to only remove what comes off with a slight pull and leave the rest. First, I believe that it is next to impossible to completely remove all sites of infection and second, I believe that once the roots are dried out (from the outside, not completely) and introduced to a healthy environment (vigorous mycorrhizae which have anti - pathogenic properties) the rot can be arrested almost immediately. The after care is very important. That is - just enough water to stop the tree from drying off completely until we see new growth. I think the deep pots mentioned by Osoyoung above is important too. Deep and just wide enough for the roots seems to encourage health rather than shallow wide ones. This is really from my personal observations and gut feeling rather than anything scientifically proven. But we know that pathogens are ever present and opportunistic and quickly take advantage of the right environment for them so by changing the environment and introducing an inhibitor (myco) they are controlled. - IF we get in early enough!
I should also mention.....I grow orchids as well and I have noticed - by growing some in transparent pots - that although a root may suddenly die and rot, it does not affect the others which may continue growing right next to the dead one. This means that the rotting is just a natural decomposition of a dead root (from whatever cause) and not an actual infection. This may actually be the problem with a tree with dead and dying roots as well. Not an actual pathogenic infection but and environmental issue leading to root death. Also! :D There was some comment from a conifer nursery at one time where they mentioned the rate of root rot/death went up in direct relation with an increase in pH over 5.5 (I think).
Great points, Michael. I suspect we are attempting to accomplish the same things with slight variations. And i appreciate your reasoned response. As we are dealing with trees in pots i too believe it is often environmental issues as opposed to pathogenic. Pot size and type has a great affect on the situation. I find this very important in the recovery of my collected Yamadori. Yamadori are almost always in sub-prime condition before collecting and removing them weakens them more so. I collect primarily conifers, Shore Pine, Hemlock, Sub Alpine Fir, Alaskan Yellow Cedar. My success rate has increased markedly with bare rooting and removing all dead and decaying root matter, and all compacted soil. I take care to add back a small percentage of site soil and surrounding litter to the pumice. For beneficial fungi purposes. As well i use sealant on any root cut over 1/4 inch. The grow boxes are built to hold the remaining roots plus 1 inch around the outside and 3 inches below the root mass. Depending on the species, extra space may be allowed above the root mass. For example: Hemlock are very dependant on the top mass of fine feeder roots.
In the winter of 2013 i had a group of expensive JBP that were purchased late fall 2012 and set out in the nursery till spring. They were in 8 gallon nursery pots and compacted roots, mostly field soil that had been transferred to the nursery pots two years previously. Life created personal distractions for the winter and early spring, and we had a very wet winter. All of the JBP started to deteriorate very quickly by the time i noticed their condition. I checked the first one and found a mass of rotted roots. Smelled bad and the roots were sopping wet. Subsequently i consulted with my teacher who advised bare rooting using the process i use with collected trees. I did all the same way and they all bounced back within two years. They are now in Anderson flats and being developed and undergoing early stages of ramification. For aftercare i used sphagnum moss on the surface to prevent drying out and placed in full sun but out of the wind. I also washed the foliage daily which conifers are used to in this rain forest climate.
Steps taken during the repotting process also affect the outcome, misting the tree, roots, careful handling of the healthy roots, gently picking out, rinsing out the compacted soil etc. With proper training and practise, bare rooting is a very useful Bonsai practise for difficult cases.
 

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Great points, Michael. I suspect we are attempting to accomplish the same things with slight variations. And i appreciate your reasoned response. As we are dealing with trees in pots i too believe it is often environmental issues as opposed to pathogenic. Pot size and type has a great affect on the situation. I find this very important in the recovery of my collected Yamadori. Yamadori are almost always in sub-prime condition before collecting and removing them weakens them more so. I collect primarily conifers, Shore Pine, Hemlock, Sub Alpine Fir, Alaskan Yellow Cedar. My success rate has increased markedly with bare rooting and removing all dead and decaying root matter, and all compacted soil. I take care to add back a small percentage of site soil and surrounding litter to the pumice. For beneficial fungi purposes. As well i use sealant on any root cut over 1/4 inch. The grow boxes are built to hold the remaining roots plus 1 inch around the outside and 3 inches below the root mass. Depending on the species, extra space may be allowed above the root mass. For example: Hemlock are very dependant on the top mass of fine feeder roots.
In the winter of 2013 i had a group of expensive JBP that were purchased late fall 2012 and set out in the nursery till spring. They were in 8 gallon nursery pots and compacted roots, mostly field soil that had been transferred to the nursery pots two years previously. Life created personal distractions for the winter and early spring, and we had a very wet winter. All of the JBP started to deteriorate very quickly by the time i noticed their condition. I checked the first one and found a mass of rotted roots. Smelled bad and the roots were sopping wet. Subsequently i consulted with my teacher who advised bare rooting using the process i use with collected trees. I did all the same way and they all bounced back within two years. They are now in Anderson flats and being developed and undergoing early stages of ramification. For aftercare i used sphagnum moss on the surface to prevent drying out and placed in full sun but out of the wind. I also washed the foliage daily which conifers are used to in this rain forest climate.
Steps taken during the repotting process also affect the outcome, misting the tree, roots, careful handling of the healthy roots, gently picking out, rinsing out the compacted soil etc. With proper training and practise, bare rooting is a very useful Bonsai practise for difficult cases.
I went out to the nursery and snapped a picture of one of the pines that was rescued with bare rooting in 2013. Candles just starting to extend, will decandle in June.
 

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Clicio

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Makes me sad too :(:mad:. I like it a lot.
Me too, a beauty!


Peroxide will kill phytophthora - yes, you would just pour the solution in the pot to 'drench' the roots. Peroxide releases reactive oxygen that nixes the pathogen and becomes plain ole water. The oxygen released will also give the roots a boost if anoxia has not killed everything already.
Well, there is a question that always bugged me about the use of peroxide on pines; what about the mycorrhizae? Will it be affected also? (I think so, but could be wrong here.)
 
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0soyoung

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Well, there is a question that always bugged me about the use of peroxide on pines; what about the mycorrhizae? Will it be affected also? (I think so, but could be wrong here.)
Mico advocates seem to say that Daconil doesn't knock out mico, so I think neither does peroxide, but I dunno. Both must negatively impact mico to some degree. Maybe it is that arbuscular mico is rapidly re-established. Good question.

I do know is that an abundant supply of Phosporous will inhibit arbuscular mico. Conversely, if you want arbusular mico, one should restrict the P supplied by fert.
 

MichaelS

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How to know which is proper one for particular tree? Each tree needs some kind special to it;).
You would think so but no. Apparently many species of ecto mycos are able to colonize a wide range of trees. Even in different familities. ( check the famous and aggressive Amanita for one example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_muscaria) Even more so with the eno kinds. To prove that for myself I direct sowed some JWP seeds into a black volcanic soil here that had never seen a pine tree, only Eucalyptus etc. They all became colonized with the local myco species and carry that same myco to this day (16 years later). In fact it may prove to be better to use the local species rather than some obscure variety native to Japan for example. Some trees can have 3 or more different kinds living on their roots at the same time. I can see this under my Birch trees in Autumn when 3 different fruiting bodies show themselves each year.
 
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MichaelS

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@MichaelS

Does this look like a problem similar to OP's?

Someone told me it's kind of a common pine thing to have happen, but will green back up in Spring. Sound correct to you?
Hard to know for sure but the first pic shows there is something abnormal going on. You should not have needles immediately behind new shoots going yellow and falling off.
 

MichaelS

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Great points, Michael. I suspect we are attempting to accomplish the same things with slight variations. And i appreciate your reasoned response. As we are dealing with trees in pots i too believe it is often environmental issues as opposed to pathogenic. Pot size and type has a great affect on the situation. I find this very important in the recovery of my collected Yamadori. Yamadori are almost always in sub-prime condition before collecting and removing them weakens them more so. I collect primarily conifers, Shore Pine, Hemlock, Sub Alpine Fir, Alaskan Yellow Cedar. My success rate has increased markedly with bare rooting and removing all dead and decaying root matter, and all compacted soil. I take care to add back a small percentage of site soil and surrounding litter to the pumice. For beneficial fungi purposes. As well i use sealant on any root cut over 1/4 inch. The grow boxes are built to hold the remaining roots plus 1 inch around the outside and 3 inches below the root mass. Depending on the species, extra space may be allowed above the root mass. For example: Hemlock are very dependant on the top mass of fine feeder roots.
In the winter of 2013 i had a group of expensive JBP that were purchased late fall 2012 and set out in the nursery till spring. They were in 8 gallon nursery pots and compacted roots, mostly field soil that had been transferred to the nursery pots two years previously. Life created personal distractions for the winter and early spring, and we had a very wet winter. All of the JBP started to deteriorate very quickly by the time i noticed their condition. I checked the first one and found a mass of rotted roots. Smelled bad and the roots were sopping wet. Subsequently i consulted with my teacher who advised bare rooting using the process i use with collected trees. I did all the same way and they all bounced back within two years. They are now in Anderson flats and being developed and undergoing early stages of ramification. For aftercare i used sphagnum moss on the surface to prevent drying out and placed in full sun but out of the wind. I also washed the foliage daily which conifers are used to in this rain forest climate.
Steps taken during the repotting process also affect the outcome, misting the tree, roots, careful handling of the healthy roots, gently picking out, rinsing out the compacted soil etc. With proper training and practise, bare rooting is a very useful Bonsai practise for difficult cases.
Sounds like you have got that procedure down. I have bare rooted plenty of healthy pines without problems (although I would rather avoid it as much as possible) but sick trees never really responded. Perhaps they were too far gone?
 

Adamantium

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Hard to know for sure but the first pic shows there is something abnormal going on. You should not have needles immediately behind new shoots going yellow and falling off.
Could it be poor watering last summer?
 
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