Help identifying a juniper

[pablo]

Hey Everyone,

I am seeking help to identify the specific species of this Juniper that I recently acquired. It definitely needs some TLC but I plan on keeping this one forever. Any ideas on what type of Juniper? Bonus question as well, tips/opinions for long term styling?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Looks like regular chinensis to me, but the thing that makes it curious is the length of the needle foliage. Could it be torulosa?

 

[Ruddigger]

Possibly Hollywood

 

[bwaynef]

Its hard (for me?) to identify junipers in a weak condition. This one definitely looks like it needs to be cleaned out and settle into what I suspect is a fresh repot. What soil is it? It doesn't look like Torulosa/Kaizuka/Hollywood juniper to me though. I don't see the spires of new growth. Give it a few more weeks of spring and it may have a defined growth habit that starts to show up.

 

[pablo]

Its hard (for me?) to identify junipers in a weak condition. This one definitely looks like it needs to be cleaned out and settle into what I suspect is a fresh repot. What soil is it? It doesn't look like Torulosa/Kaizuka/Hollywood juniper to me though. I don't see the spires of new growth. Give it a few more weeks of spring and it may have a defined growth habit that starts to show up.

Surprisingly, it has been getting healthier since I received it. Hence the need for the TLC. I'll be doing some clean up here soon once it settles into the pot and generate more growth. In terms of soil, this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RN15Q4J?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1, I am adding an organic soil here soon to accommodate for my climate. I am in Las Vegas, where our summer gets super hot and our humidity is super low. Following this guideline for my area: https://phoenixbonsai.com/group-i-hardy-easy-to-grow/

 

[pablo]

Looks like regular chinensis to me, but the thing that makes it curious is the length of the needle foliage. Could it be torulosa?

Yeah I have a procumbens nana (left) and this one (right) looks quite different, in terms of growth. Trunk is huge on this unkown one, almost looked like a Utah Juniper to me, lol.

 

[bwaynef]

almost looked like a Utah Juniper to me, lol.

Utah juniper - Bonsai Tonight

Utah juniper, Juniperous osteosperma, is a desert tree or shrub found throughout the southwest. The Utah can survive extreme heat with very little water and

bonsaitonight.com

 

[Shibui]

There are a great many cultivars of Juniper chinensis, all with slightly different growth habit and needle size, colour. You've already mentioned a few but there are more and some definitely have more open foliage. Just being weak may also have contributed to the long, unbranched shoots too.


Having said that, a great many junipers can look superficially similar so it is always hard to make an accurate ID just from visuals alone.
The good thing about junipers is that they all need very similar care so it's not really necessary to have a firm ID.
No scale in the pics for us to judge actual size but mention of the trunk being 'huge' indicates either collected garden specimen or wild collected origins. If wild collected that would probably narrow down the ID to US natives.

As far as styling I can't really make out where the larger branches start and finish and where dead sections begin and end which makes it difficult to propose any meaningful ideas. This one really needs someone to look closely and work out which bits are alive and where the dead sections are, where useful branches are and whether they might be repositioned or not, etc, etc. Whether a slightly different viewing angle might provide better aspects and much more.
With a tree of this quality I would definitely take very little notice of online advice.

Some factors that I can see in the photos that should probably influence styling decisions:
Cluster of branches at the sharp bend to the left seem to make that area visually heavy. Need to work out how to open that area or reduce the amount of visible wood.
Upper section also visually heavy. Appears to have many branches running through and around. Probably need to sort out which are required and whether any can go or be moved to better lines/direction.
Lower back branch curves up, back then down which appears to conflict with the upper mass just above. Looks like it would be difficult to move that branch which is probably why it is still there but need to consider removing it or possible alteration of the top section to accommodate the lower branch.

 

[pablo]

There are a great many cultivars of Juniper chinensis, all with slightly different growth habit and needle size, colour. You've already mentioned a few but there are more and some definitely have more open foliage. Just being weak may also have contributed to the long, unbranched shoots too.


Having said that, a great many junipers can look superficially similar so it is always hard to make an accurate ID just from visuals alone.
The good thing about junipers is that they all need very similar care so it's not really necessary to have a firm ID.
No scale in the pics for us to judge actual size but mention of the trunk being 'huge' indicates either collected garden specimen or wild collected origins. If wild collected that would probably narrow down the ID to US natives.

As far as styling I can't really make out where the larger branches start and finish and where dead sections begin and end which makes it difficult to propose any meaningful ideas. This one really needs someone to look closely and work out which bits are alive and where the dead sections are, where useful branches are and whether they might be repositioned or not, etc, etc. Whether a slightly different viewing angle might provide better aspects and much more.
With a tree of this quality I would definitely take very little notice of online advice.

Some factors that I can see in the photos that should probably influence styling decisions:
Cluster of branches at the sharp bend to the left seem to make that area visually heavy. Need to work out how to open that area or reduce the amount of visible wood.
Upper section also visually heavy. Appears to have many branches running through and around. Probably need to sort out which are required and whether any can go or be moved to better lines/direction.
Lower back branch curves up, back then down which appears to conflict with the upper mass just above. Looks like it would be difficult to move that branch which is probably why it is still there but need to consider removing it or possible alteration of the top section to accommodate the lower branch.

Really appreciate the tips. Agreed on the visual ID, I think the only goal I had here would be for care purposes and I absolutely agree as Juniper care is predominately the same. The only concern I had is based on the hardiness classification in my area for the California Juniper is a lot more difficult than other Juniper species. I'll definitely be working to clear up the tree and that bottom branch is definitely killing my ideas for it, lol. Either way, I can add some more pics here in the future as it get more healthy and as I get more wiring and pruning done. I am very hopeful that this one may look a lot better in the long run as it seems to have lots of potential from just its sheer size.

Maybe they can start a DNA testing kit for bonsais in the future, lol.

 

[nuttiest]

You have berries, can't you tell by the berries?

 

[pablo]

You have berries, can't you tell by the berries?

It seems that various species have similar color patterns. These come out a white color at first then ripen to black

 

[pablo]

Did some more research and came upon this article. Based on this info, I am pretty convinced this one falls under Itoigawa based on the color and foliage characteristics. Thoughts?

More on differences among Itoigawa, Kishu, and Shimpaku junipers

This is one topic that really intrigues me. Shimpaku has become a favorite bonsai subject, and as I work more with the different varieties, I’ll continue to share the subtle differences. From…

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

My thought is that it's not itoigawa, but regular chinensis or torulosa, if it's not something else.

The 'ropes' of itoigawa never get spindly and singular. They're also thinner than kishu and chinensis. Itoigawa is almost lime green, even the older foliage doesn't differ a lot from that tint.
Kishu grows very compact, rarely ever in singular ropes. It is darker, with light young growth. But again, it's compact and dense, regardless of the situation it's in, apparently: I have two in the shade that stay compacted, other junipers don't do that.
Chinensis and chinensis var. torulosa do grow singular ropes sometimes (and keep them), they also have the same color as to what you're showing here.

Brian wrote an amazing article, but other junipers were not described so most people get lured into "It must be one of these three!" instead of considering more logical options: chinensis 'wildtype' has been in the US for about a hundred years and was widespread in the 1960's. The torulosa variety is present since at least the 1980's. Overlooking all native US junipers too.
Itoigawa and other Japanese varieties are pretty new to the scene, relatively speaking. And because they're relatively unique, anyone who sells them will mention it, because it adds tens of dollars to the price tag.

 

[pablo]

My thought is that it's not itoigawa, but regular chinensis or torulosa, if it's not something else.

The 'ropes' of itoigawa never get spindly and singular. They're also thinner than kishu and chinensis. Itoigawa is almost lime green, even the older foliage doesn't differ a lot from that tint.
Kishu grows very compact, rarely ever in singular ropes. It is darker, with light young growth. But again, it's compact and dense, regardless of the situation it's in, apparently: I have two in the shade that stay compacted, other junipers don't do that.
Chinensis and chinensis var. torulosa do grow singular ropes sometimes (and keep them), they also have the same color as to what you're showing here.

Brian wrote an amazing article, but other junipers were not described so most people get lured into "It must be one of these three!" instead of considering more logical options: chinensis 'wildtype' has been in the US for about a hundred years and was widespread in the 1960's. The torulosa variety is present since at least the 1980's. Overlooking all native US junipers too.
Itoigawa and other Japanese varieties are pretty new to the scene, relatively speaking. And because they're relatively unique, anyone who sells them will mention it, because it adds tens of dollars to the price tag.

Thanks for the reply. Very good point in mentioning that this article also doesn't cover other species outside of the 3. I know very little about this tree that I would love to know what particular species it is, not for re-sale value but for my own development of the tree. It's rather large material, therefore I am trying to get some understanding of species for the respect of better care and development down the road.

 

[horibonsai]

I would guess a prostrata.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

For practical purposes it the specific cultivar of Juniper this tree is really doesn't matter, the horticulture is pretty much identical for all cultivars of Juniperus chinensis. And I do believe it is J. chinensis and not some other species. So 'Itoigawa', 'Kishu', or any of the others really doesn't matter as to horticulture care, or for how it is entered into bonsai shows. For a show or display, simply list it as Juniperus chinensis, with no cultivar name. That is a perfectly complete & valid name for this tree.

In judging bonsai in a show, the cultivar of a tree is really not a primary consideration, the appearance of the tree and the display set up are the key traits judged. Points for species and cultivar rarity are at best only a few points on a 100 point system.

 

[pablo]

For practical purposes it the specific cultivar of Juniper this tree is really doesn't matter, the horticulture is pretty much identical for all cultivars of Juniperus chinensis. And I do believe it is J. chinensis and not some other species. So 'Itoigawa', 'Kishu', or any of the others really doesn't matter as to horticulture care, or for how it is entered into bonsai shows. For a show or display, simply list it as Juniperus chinensis, with no cultivar name. That is a perfectly complete & valid name for this tree.

In judging bonsai in a show, the cultivar of a tree is really not a primary consideration, the appearance of the tree and the display set up are the key traits judged. Points for species and cultivar rarity are at best only a few points on a 100 point system.

This makes plenty of sense. Juniper Chinensis it is. I'll settle with this classification and consider this for any potential entries in the future with our local club. Thanks for the advice, highly appreciated !!