Hawthorn slowly fading

[Joe Dupre']

I collected this hawthorn 6 years ago as a bare stump. Since then, it's had a few bouts with aphids, which I controlled pretty easily. A month or so ago, 3 rear branches started losing leaves. They would turn brown and fall off in just a couple of days. Some of the branches still have a bit of green under the bark. Now, almost the whole tree is starting to brown and lose leaves. I've tried neem oil, Merit 3 in 1 systemic granules, an organic 3 in 1 spray and Daconil fungicide. Nothing made a difference. I even gingerly up-potted it into a bigger pot because I repotted it into a shallower pot this year. Hawthorns have a reputation on not liking to have their roots disturbed. The tree does have a few healthy, growing shoots. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[R0b]

What is going on with the bark on the main trunk? Is that flaking or is it detaching from the trunk entirely?

 

[Joe Dupre']

That's another bad sign. I OUTER bark normally flakes off in sheets. This detachment is deeper...........appearing to be to the cambium layer. The back branches have been bare for 3 weeks with no new buds forming. I'm all out of ideas.

 

[TrimmyWhimmy]

The black spots on the lower leaves look fungal to me.

 

[Joe Dupre']

The black spots on the lower leaves look fungal to me.

Yeah, to me too. 3 different anti-fungal products haven't worked yet.

 

[NaoTK]

All the secondary fungal and bug problems are symptomatic of some other general issue. We need to know more about how it did last summer and winter. Get it under shade cloth and pull back on the watering.

edit: like the tree could have fried its roots last summer or drowned the roots last winter and you wouldn't see obvious symptoms until this year. Once the roots are compromised the fungus and bugs take over

 

[Joe Dupre']

All the secondary fungal and bug problems are symptomatic of some other general issue. We need to know more about how it did last summer and winter. Get it under shade cloth and pull back on the watering.

I think that is a valid outlook. The tree was in a smaller, deeper pot for 5 years or so. This spring, I repotted it into a shallower, wider pot. Approx. the same volume of soil, only I had to cut out a few roots to get it into the shallower pot. Nothing crazy though. I've read that hawthorns don't like their roots messed with. Could be the problem. It did flourish, however, for a couple of months after the repot. When I slip potted it into this larger container, the pot was full of healthy roots , having grown them since about Feb. of this year.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Sobering update. Hawthorn was still fading. I didn't put it together, but a 6 year old azalea was fading too. The azalea was dying from the roots and trunk going UP and not from the leaves going down. A post-mortem on the azalea revealed that the root ball was about a low to mid 4 ph. I did this by soaking the root ball in a bout a quart of 7.5 ph tap water. Even with the buffering of the higher ph, the numbers were very low.

Seeing this, I submerged the hawthorn, pot and all, in a big plastic tote of water. The soil was acidic enough that it brought the 7.5ph tap water down to the low 6's. After exchanging out the water twice, it stabilized at a neutral 7 ph. Fingers crossed.

I blame all of this on the "better" ph vinegar/water solution I used just a few times. Evidently, I was too clever by half.

 

[Joe Dupre']

A couple of days in the shade and then a bit of morning sun and I'm starting to see a few tiny all-green shoots emerging. There are dozens of tiny red buds starting to swell. Not out of the woods yet, but it's looking more promising.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Bonsai medium, especially kanuma is acidic by nature. It will bring the pH of water down. Haven’t seem pH 4 in a rootball though unless root rot has occurred. This may be what happened.

Glad to see the Hawthorn coming back. Usually they start to fade away in summertime. Especially if attacked by rust and pruned. But these beasts are mighty! Please try not to water the leaves.

Best
DSD sends

 

[Joe Dupre']

Bonsai medium, especially kanuma is acidic by nature. It will bring the pH of water down. Haven’t seem pH 4 in a rootball though unless root rot has occurred. This may be what happened.

Glad to see the Hawthorn coming back. Usually they start to fade away in summertime. Especially if attacked by rust and pruned. But these beasts are mighty! Please try not to water the leaves.

Best
DSD sends

I'll keep water away from the leaves. Thanks.

It's a bit murky as to whether root rot is a symptom of dying roots caused by some other factor or an affliction of its own. In my azalea's case, I have a hunch the tree was dying of too high ph and the root rot was a symptom of that. It may just be that when a plant is very stressed, its resistance to disease and pests is much lower and open to all manner of distress.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Certainly a possibility.

We regularly strike hawthorns, specifically Paul’s Scarlet. Due to the propensity of hawthorns, crabs, apples, junipers etc to disease copper is applied 3x during winter and every 1-2 weeks until summer, our dry spell arrives.

Simce late fall through spring is our rainy season, when atmospheric rivers abound, the pots are all drilled with holes, 3/16-5/16 size dependent, on each side and the benches chocked up to lower the effective water table. Sometimes the trees are put under cover.

From my experience azaleas die from many causes. Over fertilization is one of the main ones. This is the reason why less then 1/2 strength fertilizer is used out here. Many swear by only using 1/4 strength as a safety factor due to the rink roots azaleas possess. When fertilizer damages the roots it often triggers root rot. Root rot is very hard to come back from except when using extreme measures… and these are somewhat iffy too.. (See this thread for an example).

Just a couple thoughts.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Joe Dupre']

The deceased azalea has been treated to the same soil, watering and fertilization for all of the six years I've had it. No problems in that time. Things started going south with the vinegar ph balancing regime. Further research gives me the impression that the heavy Miracle Gro treatment I use tends the acidify the soil on an ongoing basis, so there in no need for MORE acidity. Can I prove beyond a doubt any of this? Nope. Just a hunch from collecting 200 trees of 30 different species for 9 years.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Really wonder what you water pH and carbonate levels are. We have over 100 azaleas in kanuma/pumice 90/10+Biochar and use Miracle Gro/Miracid with humic acid and kelp for all for years. No issue with pH.

Best
DSD sends

 

[Joe Dupre']

My tap water runs from 7.5 to 8.3 ph or so. Carbonate levels -- I have no idea. This all started when a friend had a ph problem with a trident maple, which he solved with a vinegar dosing system. I thought "This is the magic bullet." NOT!! Like I said, I was too clever by half.

 

[NaoTK]

The deceased azalea has been treated to the same soil, watering and fertilization for all of the six years I've had it. No problems in that time. Things started going south with the vinegar ph balancing regime. Further research gives me the impression that the heavy Miracle Gro treatment I use tends the acidify the soil on an ongoing basis, so there in no need for MORE acidity. Can I prove beyond a doubt any of this? Nope. Just a hunch from collecting 200 trees of 30 different species for 9 years.

Regular miracle gro use lowered my pH by 0.5 here: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/s...bai-and-princess-persimmon.61163/post-1076828

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

If Belle Rose is getting water from the Mississippi River, likely you have hard water.

While vinegar is effective for removing hard water deposits, if won’t do much to soften hard water.

Best
DSD sends

 

[Joe Dupre']

If Belle Rose is getting water from the Mississippi River, likely you have hard water.

While vinegar is effective for removing hard water deposits, if won’t do much to soften hard water.

Best
DSD sends

We get our water from Bayou Lafourche, which is pumped in from the Mississippi. We really don't get a bunch of mineral deposits. I've been using our tap water to water all of my trees for 9 years with no problems. I think the ph thing has been handled because I use 40-50% pine bark in my soil along with heavy Miracle Gro and Miracid feeding. My friend had trouble with his trident maple because he uses much less pine bark and fertilizes with different products.

 

[DeepSouth]

Any updates on this?

The leaves of all my hawthorns do this every year at the end of the summer. They are susceptible to fungus and the high humidity doesn't help with that.

 

[Joe Dupre']

It didn't make it. I did learn a valuable lesson, though. If what you have is working...........DON'T CHANGE! I've had nine years of success with my soil mixture and fertilizer routine. I will slink back into my corner and resume the tried and true.