Forest Pot Dimension Guidelines?

[Captain.Bonsai]

What curriculum do you use to choose a forest pot?

Specifically, is there a standard ratio for pot-dimensions to tree-size (height and caliper)?

Other variables I’ve been considering are: number of trees, variety of tree size, preference for negative space, height of tallest vs shortest tree, near-view vs far view forest.

I remember reading that no single tree should be taller than the width of the pot. I can’t find where I read that, but it’s ringing a bell for me. I‘m skeptical about how universal that rule is.

Any text references would help too. I can’t find anything valuable about forest pot size selection.

 

[Stan Kengai]

I believe it depends on the perspective you are trying to achieve: close up view/in the forest or far off view. Close up view typically have a narrower pot, often narrower than the tallest tree. On the other hand, far off view plantings typically have wider pots, much wider than the tallest tree.

 

[sorce]

I like the rule you remembered. It probly holds true and looks nice in most occasions. Though breaking it with the 2 tallest trees is likely pretty easy.

Most important for me is thinner than you thought, and wider than you thought.

A forest with more negative space than positive space is very pleasing....
In the right pot!

I think the thought process of a correct forest tray is.....
"Oh this doesn't look like a Bonsai tray, but it has holes so it's not a suiban. Must be a forest tray."

Sorce

 

[rockm]

Forest bonsai require "negative space" to stand out. Too many use pots that aren't wide enough. A tight pot makes things looked cramped and "busy"

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I believe, but don't have the energy to locate my copies to look it up, but I think there are formulas in either Naka's book "Bonsai Techniques I" or "Bonsai Techniques II". But these are design guidelines, not hard and fast rules. Small pot, tall trees, puts you up close in perspective. Large pot, short trees, puts the viewer at a greater distance. If the perspective puts you too close, "you can't see the forest for the trees".

 

[sorce]

Forest bonsai require "negative space" to stand out. Too many use pots that aren't wide enough. A tight pot makes things looked cramped and "busy"

I should have mentioned the negative space I was referring to was ....

iilli.

all the way out on the sides like that.

Not that other negative space is less important.

But I think there are 2 things to consider.

1. The actual trees space.
2. The negative space of the side.

Folks who consider both have good forests.
Folks who consider one have a pot that's ok
Folks who consider neither have pots that are too small.

I think the largest category is the ones that are just ok.

It will be too small way before it is too big.

You can't have too much negative space on The side...or can you?

The negative space in the left and right should equal the golden mean.
And the trees in proportion to the pot width should also.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

The negative space on either sides should equal the blue on one side, and the red in the other.

And the trees space from end to end should measure the blue, and the entire measure of negative side space red.

The spaces between groups should also follow closely this rule.

The thin pot takes away the visual measure of a bottom, and leaves the bare trunk and canopy to be your vertical red then blue.

The deeper the pot, the more existing that bottom measure is, so you must adjust your tops accordingly.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

FWIW, In his book "Forest, Rock Planting and Ezo Spruce Bonsai," Saburo Kato puts almost ALL the emphasis on making forests on the initial three trees, a primary, secondary and tertiary. Pots aren't much of a focus...by intention. the emphasis is on tree placement. The primary must have some "alpha" characteristics--taller, a bit more substantial, etc. The initial tree placement is what matters. There can be more than one group of primary and secondary trees. Smaller containers, larger containers are "focus" tools for that placement. He uses many container sizes, none adhere to a formula (I tend to discount formulas in making anything in bonsai. They tend to be limiting). He mentions leaving some space around groups to give some visual relief, but there are no specifics. He has dozens of different diagrams for tree placement that provide ideas.
If you don't have the book, get it. It's about the best one I've ever seen for forest compositions

Forest, Rock Planting & Ezo Spruce Bonsai by Saburo Kato

This exceptional classic is a wonderful museum quality bonsai treasure by the true master of forest rock plantings. Previously available only in Japanese, it stands as the definitive bonsai book on the subject and is a noble addition to the collection of top quality bonsai books now available in...

stonelantern.com

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

The negative space on either sides should equal the blue on one side, and the red in the other.

And the trees space from end to end should measure the blue, and the entire measure of negative side space red.

The spaces between groups should also follow closely this rule.

The thin pot takes away the visual measure of a bottom, and leaves the bare trunk and canopy to be your vertical red then blue.

The deeper the pot, the more existing that bottom measure is, so you must adjust your tops accordingly.

Sorce

I like this concept.

Similarly, I’m brainstorming a Fibonacci Sequence inspired forest/pot concept for a 5 tree forest I’m planning.

I’m exploring the sequence to see if I can extrapolate an attractive pot to forest size ratio, as well as a tree spacing and arrangement. Maybe. It may be too ambitious.

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

FWIW, In his book "Forest, Rock Planting and Ezo Spruce Bonsai," Saburo Kato puts almost ALL the emphasis on making forests on the initial three trees, a primary, secondary and tertiary. The primary must have some "alpha" characteristics--taller, a bit more substantial, etc. The initial tree placement is what matters. Smaller containers, larger containers are "focus" tools for that placement. He uses many container sizes, none adhere to a formula (I tend to discount formulas in making anything in bonsai. They tend to be limiting).

If you don't have the book, get it. It's about the best one I've ever seen for forest compositions

Forest, Rock Planting & Ezo Spruce Bonsai by Saburo Kato

This exceptional classic is a wonderful museum quality bonsai treasure by the true master of forest rock plantings. Previously available only in Japanese, it stands as the definitive bonsai book on the subject and is a noble addition to the collection of top quality bonsai books now available in...

stonelantern.com

Excellent. Thanks. I do have a forest book but I don’t think it’s that one. Mine didn’t say much about the pot. The book is more of a catalog of examples than an instructional guide. I’ll grab the name next time I’m home and give it another read for those details.

 

[sorce]

may be too ambitious.

Not too ambitious.....

But I do think we can think about it too much, and lose confidence in our human ability.
It is after all, a human thing, to know the comfortable feeling, "trust your instincts" as it were.

So be ambitious, but don't try ambitiously.

I think knowing this math is key, but it should be applied to us. So we know who we are.

Then the trees will be masterfully crafted through us.

There is no way to directly apply these numbers to art.

Sorce