twisted trees
Omono
A $30 nursery tree is turned into a $350 tree in one day and people cry greed. A 300 years old yamadori is collected and sold for $3000 and people cry what a deal. What gives?
Food for Thought
- Thread starter twisted trees
- Start date
makarovnik
Mame
well a 300 year old tree is not easy to get. When collecting its not a guarantee that it is going to survive. Sometimes I hear that collecting can take a few hours sometimes a few days. You have to put some thought about the care that the person gives to the tree within the year or two. The movement and scars that was made over 300 years. When I collected a tree in my backyard it took me an hour to dig it out and then get it potted up, then had to fill the hole back in. It took me about an hour and a half to 2 hours. As apposed to a 5-10 year old nursery stock that got some styling put into a pot and then give it a price tag that is 10x the amount paid for it. That seems a little greedy to me.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Apples meet oranges.
There is a considerable difference in what's being described.
A 300 year old collected tree that's healthy and established in a container takes time and skill to get--not to mention the 300 years it took to grow it, coupled with the fact there are definitely no others like it.
Turning a $30 nursery tree into a $350 tree takes a decent pot and half an hour...and asking $350 for one of those is kind of greedy--depending of course, on the expertise and skill --and name--of the person who designed and worked it. The name thing is pretty subjective though.
There is a considerable difference in what's being described.
A 300 year old collected tree that's healthy and established in a container takes time and skill to get--not to mention the 300 years it took to grow it, coupled with the fact there are definitely no others like it.
Turning a $30 nursery tree into a $350 tree takes a decent pot and half an hour...and asking $350 for one of those is kind of greedy--depending of course, on the expertise and skill --and name--of the person who designed and worked it. The name thing is pretty subjective though.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
The name thing is very subjective thing...a master bonsai artist...I don't bat an eye at what he brings to the table...for he paid for his knowledge...now say...a member here who did the same thing...$9 tree and listed on Bonsai Auctions and sold for like $250 starting price at $150...yeah...it sort of had me ruffling my feathers. I still chew on it and it was way in the past.
A collected yamadori and a nursery tree are apples and oranges or night and day when you take the material and time involved to resell.
twisted trees
Omono
So you pay notbi g for a tree and charge $3000 and that's not greed?
defra
Masterpiece
If someone wants to pay 350 $ for a tree wich is styled yesterday from nursery stock im fine with that....
If the stock that was styled is now worth 350$ to someone it probably was one of the best stock to be found out there so the artist has a great eye!
Onlything i would think about is the guaranty you got since its styled a day ago
Will or live or wil parts die off ?
If the stock that was styled is now worth 350$ to someone it probably was one of the best stock to be found out there so the artist has a great eye!
Onlything i would think about is the guaranty you got since its styled a day ago
Will or live or wil parts die off ?
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
Price, schmice....
Something is worth what someone is willing to pay, that's it.
Something is worth what someone is willing to pay, that's it.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I have a hard time labeling either case "greed". If someone is willing to pay $3000 for the yamadori or $350 for Bill's tree, then that's what the market will bear. If not...prices will have to be lowered or the trees won't sell. Simple as that.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
But...do they willing KNOW it was a recently styled piece of nursery stock... ?
But then...honestly the fall back...all material is valued worth is what someone is willing to pay for it...no?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
You ever collected an old (over 100 years) tree? They ain't free...labor and skill have value. It take a lot of both to get older stuff out alive...Not to mention all the scouting time and resources that go into actually finding a decent tree that will fetch that kind of money, or the skill it takes to work with it. Working with old collected trees is pretty far from working on a $30 nursery special.
defra
Masterpiece
Sure a "brand name" or "well known artist" could charge more than that people would pay for a tree styled by me .... thats how things work
A dutch saying is something like this
Somethings worth what the fool/crazy pays for it
A dutch saying is something like this
Somethings worth what the fool/crazy pays for it
defra
Masterpiece
I think i wouldnt buy it myself if i knew ... but a good tree is a good tree nursery stock or not ... maybe you and i together would never have seen the tree in the stock the artist used lol
And to be honest 350$ to me is allot of money but to many its nothing realy
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
My biggest thing was...health of the tree, had it really had time to recover? Before being sold off...then to box it up and add additional stress of shipping to a recently worked tree? I would pass if newly worked...but do feel some material you have to pay for or it would never be found in ones neck of the woods. But when not mentioned in listing recently worked...how is one really to know. I try and buy my material off of ones white a good reputation where I feel more sound in the material I am buying.
defra
Masterpiece
mattspinniken
Omono
You may just be poking for the fun of it but $3000 collected trees are basically impossible for the everyday person to find. If it was easy as that, and anyone could just go grab a tree for "nothing" and sell it for $3000 the market would be flooded and the price would be driven down because of it.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Wow Mark did you think about this remark or did you just not know. You wrote: Turning a $30 nursery tree into a $350 tree takes a decent pot and half an hour..
I worked all summer on trees for my sales area. I gave each tree the time I would have expected a tree to have had for the amount of money put on it's sales price.. Two years ago I purchased a batch of Mugo Pines. This year I reduced and styled each of the ones I put up for sale. I spent a minimum of 1 1/2 hours on each tree, most of them took 2 hours or more. What is your time worth? How much do you get paid to do what you do professionally. Do you think that $ 30 an hours is unreasonable for something taking skill and talent? Do you think you can accomplish a fully styled tree in 30 minutes? Do you think you should account for the cost of the pot the tree is put into? How about the original cost of the tree and the soil and the wire and the screening? It all adds up. The tree even with my professional discount $5, the cost of the pots $10.00, the wire about $5.00, the soil about $2.50 two hours labor $60, unles my addition is off that comes to $82.50 a tree and that's without the standard retail profit. That's the cost. Any idea how much I charged for these trees? $50.00 each. Technically I lost $32.50 a tree and that does not account for that additional 5.00 for the tree and what $5.00 for the pot. I lost $42.50 / tree. I don't know how anyone can make a living like this. If you guys think things are over priced you had better wake up and discover just how much goes into producing a tree. This thread, I'm sorry to say, made me take the time to figure this crap out and boy was I handed a wake up call. I will either charge more for trees or I will stop selling them.
Starfox
Masterpiece
People are willing to pay over the odds for pre bonsai that has barely been styled, saw a tree today on facebook I can pick up for less than a tenner and starting bid is nearly 4 times as much. Nursery stock whacked in a pot is all and even then the bidders are totally out of garden zone.
So yeah put a masters name next to that and no doubt they would sell for stupid money.
Yamadori if it isn't available easily to you then yeah, you admire from a far and realise a bit more what it takes. There is certainly more value in that than most nursery stock.
So yeah put a masters name next to that and no doubt they would sell for stupid money.
Yamadori if it isn't available easily to you then yeah, you admire from a far and realise a bit more what it takes. There is certainly more value in that than most nursery stock.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
If you want cheap get your own material and learn how to do the styling yourself, even the raw material is not cheap anymore.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Have you looked on Ebay? Or one of those bonsai retail outlets or heck, even from roadside vendors?
Your labor is probably the exception.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Explain please; too much---- not enough? If it's too much then it's not worth doing unless I can get the trees for free, and toss them into bulb pots--- and those are not easy to find. The last I knew bonsai was not a charity. Here's the problem; unless you actually do this stuff you have no idea the cost of doing it. After a while the joy of working for yourself is trodden down by the realization of working for nothing reinforced by actually losing money and not being able to recoup the loss when you do your taxes. I forgot to mention perviously the cost of fertilizer and the water bill/tree over the years of care before you can sell the tree. That adds another $10.00/tree over time.
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