Field growing vs colanders, raised growing beds?
- Thread starter justBonsai
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barrosinc
Masterpiece
he just posted it goes on this saturday
justBonsai
Omono
I like making my own blends as I can adjust them as needed and its cheaper. For pumice I use dry stall which is $15 for 40lbs which I can pick up in Northridge. Bark and sifted organics are easy to find anywhere and I use floor dry for less than $10 for a 14L bag as a filler component. All I need is just lava which if I can grind myself efficiently, can save me lots of money. Depending on my available growing space I might try to build a growing bed but I'm definitely going to use cheaper components. Otherwise it will be large colanders and pond baskets with premium components.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Great, that all makes perfect sense to me...
**Smoke, walking away shaking his head**
**Smoke, walking away shaking his head**
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Depends on the type of tree - our ficus priminoides, will continue to thicken in 1" deep pots - our tamarinds will do so in colanders, placed in growing troughs of 12" depth and the fukien tea needs open ground and about 5 to 10 years.
Good Day
Anthony
Good Day
Anthony
NoTopSkies
Yamadori
I have tried to read on this topic. Thanks for this thread. I have knocked together a couple of 2’x8’ raised beds for spring planting of some seeds I ordered. I would just like some clarification. NAPA 8822 is easy to get here in KS. To this I need to find a source of pumice and lava? Do I mix in some compost - or, is it pine bark that was recommended? All of this except for compost must be store bought. My soil is very dense clay.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
I have dozens of trees in pond baskets, essentially colanders, and a few dozen in a raised bed with lightly amended topsoil. I am getting great growth both ways but some plants, like my Trident maples, are growing faster in the baskets. My conifers and my Fuji cherry's are doing much better in my raised bed. One observation I had was with the Fuji cherries. I put 3 in pond pots and six in the ground about 2 to 3 weeks later. The ones in pots leafed out and grew well and then lost their leaves (for the most part) and grew new ones. One of the 3 died. The ones in the raised bed always looked better and grew faster so I moved the two remaining potted ones to the bed and they did much better. On the other hand, the Japanese larch in pond pots grew twice as much as those in the raised bed. All of these plants were pretty much side by side. The raised bed has wood pallets next to it that the pond baskets were on.
I don't regret either method and I am very happy with the growth overall, but those in the raised bed only need water once or twice a week at most and those in baskets needed water every day in the summer. Now with cooler temperatures I barely water the raised bed at all and the pond pots get it at least 3 days a week.
Within the next few weeks I will be planting several trees in fabric grow pots in the ground. Bare in mind that there are grow bags for above ground use, and ones for in ground use. I used this type as long as 20 years back, maybe more.
I don't regret either method and I am very happy with the growth overall, but those in the raised bed only need water once or twice a week at most and those in baskets needed water every day in the summer. Now with cooler temperatures I barely water the raised bed at all and the pond pots get it at least 3 days a week.
Within the next few weeks I will be planting several trees in fabric grow pots in the ground. Bare in mind that there are grow bags for above ground use, and ones for in ground use. I used this type as long as 20 years back, maybe more.
NoTopSkies
Yamadori
Thanks, I think if I have excess seedlings (trying to be optimistic here) I will try the colander thing.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
If you're planting in the ground and it's good garden soil, then it's fine for ~bonsai~. You only have "bonsai" soil in a pot on a bench to control drainage and/or slow or stop growth. Those are not issues growing in the ground. Use that same garden soil for the same results that you get growing veggies in that ground. If you want different results, use different "soil".
My best experience is: in a pot sunk in the ground for two growing seasons, not three; repotting in autumn, ad infinitum. The first year growth will be good with lots of feeder roots inside the pot and some anchor roots escaping through the drainage holes. The second and succeeding years' growth will be substantial outside of the pot. The pot will confine the roots, somewhat, so you get lots of roots inside the pot. Some roots will escape through the drain holes every year, but the second year the roots that escaped will grow much more vigorous than the roots inside the pot. Repotting that second autumn allows you to save lots of feeder-sized roots in the pot and remove all the roots outside the pot and most anchor-size roots inside the pot. Trim the upper tree for shape every fall, and when repotting, upsize only if you want to finish with a larger pot. It is better to do the growing in the size pot you want for the finished tree which forces you to trim to that size every time you repot.
Letting it go a third year is counter-productive. The pot will be broken and no longer control or confine the feeder roots to the pot and the anchor roots will be very long. You will have too many thick anchor roots close to the crown and a concurrent reduction in feeder roots close-in. Bad medicine! You will only do it once.
Growth is a reflection of the number of leaves on a tree for the whole season. If you want lots of growth you never remove any leaves. There is a linear relationship between the amount of leaves and the amount of wood growth; one for one. Wood is what's left-over when all the leaves are gone in autumn. Remove wood to suit your style/design after all the leaves come off every autumn. (Mr. Pall, please avert your gaze) Pinching poorly postioned buds during the growing season is fine to guide growth, except if you have established your architecture and are ramifying where you will cut back to two leaves all over the canopy, in which case you only pinch buds positioned too close to the trunk where no leaves or twigs are allowed in a design.
You can repeat this two-years-in-the-ground routine as many times as you can stand it. In the final round, use the finished bonsai pot.
My best experience is: in a pot sunk in the ground for two growing seasons, not three; repotting in autumn, ad infinitum. The first year growth will be good with lots of feeder roots inside the pot and some anchor roots escaping through the drainage holes. The second and succeeding years' growth will be substantial outside of the pot. The pot will confine the roots, somewhat, so you get lots of roots inside the pot. Some roots will escape through the drain holes every year, but the second year the roots that escaped will grow much more vigorous than the roots inside the pot. Repotting that second autumn allows you to save lots of feeder-sized roots in the pot and remove all the roots outside the pot and most anchor-size roots inside the pot. Trim the upper tree for shape every fall, and when repotting, upsize only if you want to finish with a larger pot. It is better to do the growing in the size pot you want for the finished tree which forces you to trim to that size every time you repot.
Letting it go a third year is counter-productive. The pot will be broken and no longer control or confine the feeder roots to the pot and the anchor roots will be very long. You will have too many thick anchor roots close to the crown and a concurrent reduction in feeder roots close-in. Bad medicine! You will only do it once.
Growth is a reflection of the number of leaves on a tree for the whole season. If you want lots of growth you never remove any leaves. There is a linear relationship between the amount of leaves and the amount of wood growth; one for one. Wood is what's left-over when all the leaves are gone in autumn. Remove wood to suit your style/design after all the leaves come off every autumn. (Mr. Pall, please avert your gaze) Pinching poorly postioned buds during the growing season is fine to guide growth, except if you have established your architecture and are ramifying where you will cut back to two leaves all over the canopy, in which case you only pinch buds positioned too close to the trunk where no leaves or twigs are allowed in a design.
You can repeat this two-years-in-the-ground routine as many times as you can stand it. In the final round, use the finished bonsai pot.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
Basically I agree here but before you put a pot in the ground, know you soil and know your tree. Put a pot in poor draining soil, especially it a wet season is a terrible thing to do. Trying this with a ridiculously fast growing plant is also a bad idea. I have a couple maples that I put in the ground about 30 years ago that after two years could not be moved because root development outside the pot was so extensive. I have a bald cypress that was in a one gallon pot when I put it in my koi pond 30 years ago. After two years it was well rooted into the rock work of the pond and is now over 40 feet tall. Of course you would never put any kind of willow in a pot in the ground. It is surprisingly easy to harvest a pond pot or colander from the ground after two years. A root bag is the best choice.
Nobody is ever going to right without some experimenting.
Hello to every one.
I found this link ;
What i can see is that the pines and maples are in to a large fruit basket for improve the root pruning every year, some one who make christmas trees told me that in Japan for the pre-bonsai stock (https://bonsaibark.com/2009/01/28/have-you-thought-about-field-growing/) use sand river (big diameter) near the tree with a nebari training base, in that way the tree send roots to the wet area.
¿Do you knows where i can find books or magazines talking about the field growing bonsai?, i would be a god giff for me.
I found this link ;
What i can see is that the pines and maples are in to a large fruit basket for improve the root pruning every year, some one who make christmas trees told me that in Japan for the pre-bonsai stock (https://bonsaibark.com/2009/01/28/have-you-thought-about-field-growing/) use sand river (big diameter) near the tree with a nebari training base, in that way the tree send roots to the wet area.
¿Do you knows where i can find books or magazines talking about the field growing bonsai?, i would be a god giff for me.
Les Lonsdale
Seedling
I have tested 'Oil Dry' and similar baked clay products from auto part stores. I put some oil dry into a jar of water. I would shake it every week or so. It never broke down in over 5 yrs! I would test any clay product that you plan to use first.
Ohmy222
Shohin
If you use aggregate type soil in the ground I find you get some pretty good feeder roots. I use Napa and lots of perlite and have used turface and regular potting soil with perlite too. Perlite is light but a pretty solid substitute for pumice. Down side is you can dry out a tree if you just leave it be. I would imagine a growing bed of aggregate soil would produce significant feeder roots. I love pond baskets but the soil is what really drives the feeder roots IMO. I have had trees I could almost just lift out the ground with little effort and great roots. I would say elms are the only species I have trouble with. They love to throw out one or two really big long roots for some reason. I have seen some roots as big as the trunk itself and these were lateral roots. Zelkova too to a lesser degree. Azaleas are the easiest by far as the are shallow and don’t produce thick roots. Almost no reason not to put them in the ground.
Also, once a root leaves the aggregate a hits my great Georgia clay you will get some long runner roots so you have to watch it. Also use a board underneath. I always start in a container or pond basket first to build a nice small base of feeders though. Then I will put in the ground.
Also, once a root leaves the aggregate a hits my great Georgia clay you will get some long runner roots so you have to watch it. Also use a board underneath. I always start in a container or pond basket first to build a nice small base of feeders though. Then I will put in the ground.
yenling83
Omono
Since the OP is currently apprenticing in Japan and this is an older thread now, I sure would love to hear if he has any opinions or techniques he's learned for growing trunks? @bleumeon
Personally i've been experimenting with field growing, raised beds, container growing, colanders, and allowing roots to escape into the ground while container growing. Each method seems to have pluses and minuses.
justBonsai
Omono
Wow a lot has changed since I started this thread. I actually replied a long time ago but my account was bugged or something and posts would never go through.
Hey Jeremiah. To be honest, at Kouka-en we don't get much exposure to different growing techniques but I've made a lot of my own conclusions and inferences from studying many different trees.
I think you can use any method you want as long as you achieve the result you desire. The key thing is that the stage of development the tree is in should be reflected by type of growth you're producing on the tree. For instance if you are still working on the primary lines, trunk development, perhaps some main branches using grow methods that allow for rigorous and unrestricted root growth are fine. But if you are transitioning to successive stages of refinement, or desire slower more controlled growth you eventually want to transition to containers. For me, allowing unrestricted root growth like in the ground or raised bed means you want to develop strong runners or leaders. Growth in colanders allow for rapid fine root proliferation which equate to vigor and fast growth (perhaps not as much as in the ground) but you have more control. You produce a more balanced root mass as well as opposed to some select roots growing very large. This will mean the transition to container will be easier. Container growing of course, is the slowest but the size/type of container as well as the soil you use plays a large role.
There is something to be said though about container growing trees for a long time. I remember Peter Tea wrote an excellent blog post about an old trident maple which had been slowly container grown for many decades. Ahh here it is: https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/good-taste-trident-maple/
Hey Jeremiah. To be honest, at Kouka-en we don't get much exposure to different growing techniques but I've made a lot of my own conclusions and inferences from studying many different trees.
I think you can use any method you want as long as you achieve the result you desire. The key thing is that the stage of development the tree is in should be reflected by type of growth you're producing on the tree. For instance if you are still working on the primary lines, trunk development, perhaps some main branches using grow methods that allow for rigorous and unrestricted root growth are fine. But if you are transitioning to successive stages of refinement, or desire slower more controlled growth you eventually want to transition to containers. For me, allowing unrestricted root growth like in the ground or raised bed means you want to develop strong runners or leaders. Growth in colanders allow for rapid fine root proliferation which equate to vigor and fast growth (perhaps not as much as in the ground) but you have more control. You produce a more balanced root mass as well as opposed to some select roots growing very large. This will mean the transition to container will be easier. Container growing of course, is the slowest but the size/type of container as well as the soil you use plays a large role.
There is something to be said though about container growing trees for a long time. I remember Peter Tea wrote an excellent blog post about an old trident maple which had been slowly container grown for many decades. Ahh here it is: https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/good-taste-trident-maple/
justBonsai
Omono
There is something to be said though about container growing trees for a long time. I remember Peter Tea wrote an excellent blog post about an old trident maple which had been slowly container grown for many decades. Ahh here it is: https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/good-taste-trident-maple/
The branches, even to the tertiary level and more, exhibited fissuring and bark indicative of that of an older tree. To grow that tree to the silhouette it currently exhibited in a small container took decades, and certainly a tree with the exact same profile and branches could have been produced in significantly less time. However the branches and bark would not exhibit the same character and age.
I think the choice of method can be species dependent too. For some species it may be a lot more work to make the transition from field grown to container grown--to be able to produce enough of a fine root mass close to the trunk that can sustain the tree in an enclosed environment. In those cases maybe raised beds or colander/container use while allowing the roots to escape into the grown is a better choice so you can maintain the finer roots while you allow some to run to allow for faster growth.
One of the biggest answers I've gotten to a lot of questions here in Japan, and especially from my senpai Maeoka-san, who I highly respect and has immense experience and skill, is, "it depends." You are exactly right in that every method has it's pluses and minus so it's best to understand the merits of each and decide which one is the best for yourself in what you want to do. I would not trust the advice of anyone who advocates blanket answers or solutions in bonsai.
I can give some advice based off my own experience though.
Don't try to achieve 2 different stages of growth on one tree at the same time. Meaning like trying to develop the trunk and and grow fine branching at the same time. Well you can, but you are limited by the method best for maintaining and producing the fine branches even if it is not the best for developing the trunk. Not vice versa. If you use a method conducive just to thickening and growing the trunk as fast as possible, the resulting growth on the finer branches will be too coarse and be unusable for high quality, fine branching with good internode size. Alternatively you can cut off all the branches, restart, and focus on improving the trunk which in some cases is better. (this is mainly regarding deciduous tree development)
I do lack experience and knowledge regarding growing trunks for coniferous material like junipers and pines. I've been able to work on some fantastic field grown shinpaku's here in Japan, but I have no idea where half the trees come from or who was the person who originally made it. I am always curious as well and when I do meet skilled practitioners or hobbyists it is always fun to pick their brain.
The branches, even to the tertiary level and more, exhibited fissuring and bark indicative of that of an older tree. To grow that tree to the silhouette it currently exhibited in a small container took decades, and certainly a tree with the exact same profile and branches could have been produced in significantly less time. However the branches and bark would not exhibit the same character and age.
I think the choice of method can be species dependent too. For some species it may be a lot more work to make the transition from field grown to container grown--to be able to produce enough of a fine root mass close to the trunk that can sustain the tree in an enclosed environment. In those cases maybe raised beds or colander/container use while allowing the roots to escape into the grown is a better choice so you can maintain the finer roots while you allow some to run to allow for faster growth.
One of the biggest answers I've gotten to a lot of questions here in Japan, and especially from my senpai Maeoka-san, who I highly respect and has immense experience and skill, is, "it depends." You are exactly right in that every method has it's pluses and minus so it's best to understand the merits of each and decide which one is the best for yourself in what you want to do. I would not trust the advice of anyone who advocates blanket answers or solutions in bonsai.
I can give some advice based off my own experience though.
Don't try to achieve 2 different stages of growth on one tree at the same time. Meaning like trying to develop the trunk and and grow fine branching at the same time. Well you can, but you are limited by the method best for maintaining and producing the fine branches even if it is not the best for developing the trunk. Not vice versa. If you use a method conducive just to thickening and growing the trunk as fast as possible, the resulting growth on the finer branches will be too coarse and be unusable for high quality, fine branching with good internode size. Alternatively you can cut off all the branches, restart, and focus on improving the trunk which in some cases is better. (this is mainly regarding deciduous tree development)
I do lack experience and knowledge regarding growing trunks for coniferous material like junipers and pines. I've been able to work on some fantastic field grown shinpaku's here in Japan, but I have no idea where half the trees come from or who was the person who originally made it. I am always curious as well and when I do meet skilled practitioners or hobbyists it is always fun to pick their brain.
Daniel Camilleri
Seedling
Thanks @bleumeon for the detailed answer. Us amateurs always apreciate such input from someone working in the professional world of our hobby.
If i can add my 2 cents to the argument, my way of doing things is a mix of both the ground and colander method. Quite similar to what @penumbra and @Forsoothe! are doing. I mainly work with Aleppo pines since those are the ones we have over here. I pot them in a mix of pumice and perlite in a colander and sink that in the ground. I do lift it up every other year, sometimes every year, depends on the growth and vigour. The more growth and vigour the tree had the previous growing season, the more chances i'd lift it from the ground. What i do when i lift from the ground, is just that, lift from the ground, cut all protruding roots and sink it back in. That way i hvae more control over the roots while still benefiting from ground growing. Granted, leaving them in the ground without lifting will give you better growth the following year but doing so year after year will give you problems later on in the lack of feeder roots in the colander and more woody tick roots instead. What i want to add is that, basically i use the colander for the simple reason that, i have a better growing medium inside it, and also so that when i lift from the ground, i don't disturb the roots inside the colander more than i have to.
If i can add my 2 cents to the argument, my way of doing things is a mix of both the ground and colander method. Quite similar to what @penumbra and @Forsoothe! are doing. I mainly work with Aleppo pines since those are the ones we have over here. I pot them in a mix of pumice and perlite in a colander and sink that in the ground. I do lift it up every other year, sometimes every year, depends on the growth and vigour. The more growth and vigour the tree had the previous growing season, the more chances i'd lift it from the ground. What i do when i lift from the ground, is just that, lift from the ground, cut all protruding roots and sink it back in. That way i hvae more control over the roots while still benefiting from ground growing. Granted, leaving them in the ground without lifting will give you better growth the following year but doing so year after year will give you problems later on in the lack of feeder roots in the colander and more woody tick roots instead. What i want to add is that, basically i use the colander for the simple reason that, i have a better growing medium inside it, and also so that when i lift from the ground, i don't disturb the roots inside the colander more than i have to.
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