Fertilizing recently collected trees?

[FedericoMelis]

I've just subscribed to Mirai and watched the Randy Knight's video with Ryan, at some point he says he fertilizes his newly collected trees very very soon, with Miracle Gro (24-8-16 btw) watered into both the foliage and soil every 10 days or so.
Ryan says that can play a good role in Randy's very high rate of success (along with everything else he does).
It's the first time I've heard of someone fertilizing so early, I've always seen strong advise against such thing, many would say not to feed for the whole first year, or you would kill the new roots.
What's your opinion about this?
Does any of you have or ever tried a similar approach ?

 

[mattspinniken]

I fertilize within about 2-3 months of collection. Especially the foliage on Cedars/Junipers. Ive had good success. I think its really important that there is available fertilizer for the tree once it begins growing roots which is sooner than it grows new foliage.

 

[Walter Pall]

I fertilize the next morning.

 

[FedericoMelis]

I fertilize the next morning.

Hi Walter, I expected!
Where do you think all the fearmongering "you will burn your recovering tree's root" thing comes from?

 

[yenling83]

You'll get different answers depending on who you ask, it's hard to really answer a question like this because no one has really done an in-depth scientific study with a large sample size while controlling for different variables. Randy is one of the best and likely successfully collects more trees compared to anyone else, so i'd def follow his recommendations at least to start with.

I watched the stream you're referring to several times as well-great stuff! Personally i'll start feeding the foliage immediately after collection, but I'll wait 3-4 weeks to start root fertilization. I could be off, hard to know exactly. Randy uses a granular chemical fertilizer, but it seemed to me that he was not too concerned over exactly which one. I think the important point is that you do feed with something to get the tree growing strong. Too much of anything can be bad, so finding the right balance is key. Foliage feeding is a good idea as these trees are usually re-establishing their root mass. Personally I also use a chemical fert for newly collected Yamadori as the goal is to really get them pumping. I switch over to all organic once they are in a ceramic container, as my goal is generally to slow the growth down and develop some ramification.

 

[FedericoMelis]

You'll get different answers depending on who you ask, it's hard to really answer a question like this because no one has really done an in-depth scientific study with a large sample size while controlling for different variables. Randy is one of the best and likely successfully collects more trees compared to anyone else, so i'd def follow his recommendations at least to start with.

I watched the stream you're referring to several times as well-great stuff! Personally i'll start feeding the foliage immediately after collection, but I'll wait 3-4 weeks to start root fertilization. I could be off, hard to know exactly. Randy uses a granular chemical fertilizer, but it seemed to me that he was not too concerned over exactly which one. I think the important point is that you do feed with something to get the tree growing strong. Too much of anything can be bad, so finding the right balance is key. Foliage feeding is a good idea as these trees are usually re-establishing their root mass. Personally I also use a chemical fert for newly collected Yamadori as the goal is to really get them pumping. I switch over to all organic once they are in a ceramic container, as my goal is generally to slow the growth down and develop some ramification.

I've subscribed to Mirai just to see that video ahah (well, not true, but you get the idea. I hope they do more stuff with Randy)

To be honest it seems to me that very few people really have experimented with this, many just accept the general "rule" as a dogma.
It's never "I have tried it and it killed my trees" but more like "you just dont do it, because it's wrong".

I will definitely start experimenting!
You think there is a difference with deciduous and conifers?

 

[Atom#28]

I fertilize the next morning.

Does the time of year/season influence your fertilizing regimen for newly collected trees? I have some new yamadori, all conifers, but I wasn't sure if its safe to fertilize this close to winter... I can use all the help I can get!

 

[parhamr]

Randy uses a granular chemical fertilizer, but it seemed to me that he was not too concerned over exactly which one

That’s correct.

 

[parhamr]

Does the time of year/season influence your fertilizing regimen for newly collected trees? I have some new yamadori, all conifers, but I wasn't sure if its safe to fertilize this close to winter... I can use all the help I can get!

The guidance that fertilizing close to winter will cause too much soft new growth is more recently being seen as outdated, incorrect advice. Generally, the trees only take what they want or need. The origin of this advice and the suggestion to use no-to-low nitrogen fertilizer was supposedly born from Victorian era gardeners, as opposed to evidence based research.

 

[Atom#28]

I have been thinking about this a lot, and came to a similar conclusion. I mean, in my mind, fertilizing is simply providing the tree ACCESS to supplement and allowing it to utilize what it needs, when it needs it. This may be highly simplifying the process, but isn't that really the basic principal of it?

 

[Walter Pall]

Hi Walter, I expected!
Where do you think all the fearmongering "you will burn your recovering tree's root" thing comes from?

I think it comes from old fashioned bonsai gardening.



When we used SOIL, COMPOST, LOAM and such things as the old books said there was truth in the sayings: 'you must not feed recently repotted trees until they are really settled, 'you must never fertilize recently collected trees until they are settled', and 'you must be very careful with watering. The most common tree killer is over-watering'.



This was until about 20 to 25 years ago.



With the advent of modern substrates now the sayings are:

'you should fertilize very soon after repotting and collecting -(which is very similar to the tree)', 'You can hardly overwater, but you can definitely underwater a bonsai', 'You must water more at a time with modern substrates, but you do not have to care much whether you overwater', 'In case of doubt just water - it can do no harm. Not watering does the harm'
'No individual testing ane watering anymore. Just water everything with a garden hose like you wuld your flower garden or lawn.' 'Any fool can water and fertilize now - just do it.'


All this is not in our literature nor in the heads of the old practitioners.

 

[Anthony]

The reason for not fertilising when using 1 to 3 parts compost,
is because of the NPK content, it can be as high as 2/3 N and
so on.Plus micro - nutrients and microbes.
No need for Fish emulsion either.

More than enough to feed for months.

Texas State edu. has the compost lasting as a feed for 4 years.

******(We grow our trees for Beauty, not produce or lumber.*****

It is how you manipulate the properties that matters.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

ADD on ,
collected information from an edu.
Mature tree lives in 3 feet deep by x length [ canopy plus root spread
outwards ]. Limitation of depth may be O2 to roots.
Soil has 8 % organic matter,

You can calculate the soil mass of a mature tree to bonsai pot.
say 3 feet = 3 inches of pot depth and say 10 feet length pf canopy etc.
so 3 x 10 x 10 inches volume = x

So when you collect a tree from a situation of even less soil.
10 parts inorganic mix plus fermented oil seed cake or
use an inorganic fertiliser - you easily satisfy the growing need.
Or
Bypass with 1 part organic to 9 parts inorganic, you would not
need a fertiliser for a few months.

Fattening trunks is another world.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[FedericoMelis]

ADD on ,
collected information from an edu.
Mature tree lives in 3 feet deep by x length [ canopy plus root spread
outwards ]. Limitation of depth may be O2 to roots.
Soil has 8 % organic matter,

You can calculate the soil mass of a mature tree to bonsai pot.
say 3 feet = 3 inches of pot depth and say 10 feet length pf canopy etc.
so 3 x 10 x 10 inches volume = x

So when you collect a tree from a situation of even less soil.
10 parts inorganic mix plus fermented oil seed cake or
use an inorganic fertiliser - you easily satisfy the growing need.
Or
Bypass with 1 part organic to 9 parts inorganic, you would not
need a fertiliser for a few months.

Fattening trunks is another world.
Good Day
Anthony

You mean that the tree won't use anymore fertilizer for the next few months, or that nutrients will stay on the soil for the plant to use them?
I think chemical fertilizer watered into full pumice trees won't last much at all, hence why Randy advocates using every 10 days or so (I think @Walter Pall has similar timing, atleast for most of his trees)

 

[Anthony]

@FedericoMelis ,

testing repotting on the local willow - Ficus p ,
showed root growth after two weeks.
This is our fastest tree as rooting goes.

Also uses the least amount of organic material,
1 part to 9 parts inorganic. In a 1 inch [ 2.5 cm ]
deep bonsai pot.

The organic will feed the tree for at least 6 months,
before we need to fertilise.
Tropics here.
Good Day
Anthony

* Watering is 1 in the evening, 2 in the morning like all
the other varieties of trees being grown.
Watering in the evening, is before 4,30 p.m and placement
is full sun for most plants.
Leaves go dry into the night.

Hand watering uses two watering roses.
The evening watering is with a fine rose, and it moistens,
the soil for night time recovery and washes the leaves.

 

[BrianBay9]

You mean that the tree won't use anymore fertilizer for the next few months, or that nutrients will stay on the soil for the plant to use them?
I think chemical fertilizer watered into full pumice trees won't last much at all, hence why Randy advocates using every 10 days or so (I think @Walter Pall has similar timing, atleast for most of his trees)

I tested completely inorganic soil mix. Used chemical fertilizer once, watered daily, and tested the water running out of the pot every day for amines. They were undetectable by 8 days. That's why I fertilize once a week. Now organic ferts in bags on the surface, slowing breaking down are a different story.

 

[Anthony]

Inorganic soil + artiificial fertiliser. used to be called - Hydroponics

Inorganic soil + fermented oil seed meal is compost plus inorganic

Inorganic soil + tea bagged fermented oil seed meal is hydroponics

On inorganic soil dead insects,dead roots, bird poop etc, start back up
soil found in high mountain regions.

Nothing new,
Good Day
Anthony

 

[FedericoMelis]

@FedericoMelis ,

testing repotting on the local willow - Ficus p ,
showed root growth after two weeks.
This is our fastest tree as rooting goes.

Also uses the least amount of organic material,
1 part to 9 parts inorganic. In a 1 inch [ 2.5 cm ]
deep bonsai pot.

The organic will feed the tree for at least 6 months,
before we need to fertilise.
Tropics here.
Good Day
Anthony

I dont use organics tho, my soil is 100% inorganic, expecially on collected trees

 

[Trenthany]

ADD on ,
collected information from an edu.
Mature tree lives in 3 feet deep by x length [ canopy plus root spread
outwards ]. Limitation of depth may be O2 to roots.
Soil has 8 % organic matter,

You can calculate the soil mass of a mature tree to bonsai pot.
say 3 feet = 3 inches of pot depth and say 10 feet length pf canopy etc.
so 3 x 10 x 10 inches volume = x

So when you collect a tree from a situation of even less soil.
10 parts inorganic mix plus fermented oil seed cake or
use an inorganic fertiliser - you easily satisfy the growing need.
Or
Bypass with 1 part organic to 9 parts inorganic, you would not
need a fertiliser for a few months.

Fattening trunks is another world.
Good Day
Anthony

Quick math comparison in my head of your two posts gives me approx. 4 months of compost life at 1:9 mix. Your feet to inches made it ease because 12 months and 12 inches made the math simple. A year becomes a month a foot becomes an inch if you keep to scales similar to a wild tree. Something in an inappropriate sized pot would be a different story and give different results. Four instance a 10”x10”x1” pot would only give you about 5 weeks and a couple days if you want to break it down. Because it would be 1/3rd of the time. It would also not account for thinner substrate levels allowing fast drainage. 3 inches is a lot less than 3 feet come to think of it. I wonder if the problem doesn’t have a logarithmic aspect. Hmmm I need someone to do a comparative study with 1/10th compost and however you test for nutrients to see the life span of the nutrients in a bonsai pot of various depths so I can see if the math works. @BrianBay9 did you just raise your hand? How do you test for amines? Would that tell you the functional effectiveness of compost in a mix? Lol @cmeg1 you like to experiment! Got one I’m curious about now!

 

[meushi]

I've always seen strong advise against such thing, many would say not to feed for the whole first year, or you would kill the new roots.

I've heard both this and an alternative version: only the fine roots took the fertilizer and that there is no point in fertilizing as the fine roots were damaged during collection or repotting. The problem is that it's been been known for at least 20 years that fertilizer is taken through the entire root and not just the tip of the "feeders".

Also roots grow just fine in fertilizer... when I was still living in Germany, I tried growing itoigawa cuttings in a large pot filled with Rinderdung (pelletized cow dung), horn and bone meal bound together with a tiny bit of compost. They grew like bad weeds thanks to the fertilizer and available water.