Evergreen's Elms

Nybonsai12

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Me 3 on the junis. I think people are crazy when I see them camp out front of a store for the newest iphone or video game, but I would totally be outside Brent's nursery for first pick on one of the shimpakus he will offer.
 

jkd2572

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His site is the only place I have ever seen one of these. I have never seen one with actual leaves on it. :). Anybody have a pic with leaves?
 

coh

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Thats one way of looking at it. Believe me I know how hard it is too justify spending this kind of money on a tree. And the truth of the matter is that many can not afford to spend this kind of money.
ButI'd like you to think about what has gone into this tree in the last 25 years- 25 years of watering, pruning, fertilizing,watering, spraying for bugs, spraying for fungus,digging up, potting,replanting, repotting,watering etc.. That's 25 years worth of all that- all for only $900.00!!! Thats $36.00 a year! Pretty cheap if you ask me. And the reason why there aren't too many people growing trees like this. Not enough people who are willing to appreciate and pay for what it takes to grow material on this level. Only a grower who has more passion for growing great material then for a big payday can do this. Obviously Brent doesn't do it for the big paydays.
I would hope that more of us remember all that goes into growing material for bonsai and maybe gain a little more appreciation and the willingness to pay for all that work.

I'd be willing to guess that most on this forum have no issue with the price of material like this. However...keep in mind that many of us are quite new to bonsai (3 years for me, for example) and still figuring out how to keep trees healthy over several years, through repotting cycles, etc. So even though I can easily recognize the value of this type of stock, I'm not at a point where I'm willing to plunk down $900 or more for a single tree. If I'd been doing this for 10 years or more and felt pretty confident about my ability to keep trees alive and develop them, it would be a different story.

Chris
 

davetree

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His site is the only place I have ever seen one of these. I have never seen one with actual leaves on it. :). Anybody have a pic with leaves?

The elms ? Here's one.
 

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bonsaibp

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I'd be willing to guess that most on this forum have no issue with the price of material like this. However...keep in mind that many of us are quite new to bonsai (3 years for me, for example) and still figuring out how to keep trees healthy over several years, through repotting cycles, etc. So even though I can easily recognize the value of this type of stock, I'm not at a point where I'm willing to plunk down $900 or more for a single tree. If I'd been doing this for 10 years or more and felt pretty confident about my ability to keep trees alive and develop them, it would be a different story.

Chris
Nor am I recommending that anyone without the skills buy it -that could be a waste of awesome material and money I just want people to realize the value that something like this has. It doesn't matter if you could /would buy a tree like this -many can't and thats fine what does matter to me is that people appreciate the value of something like this. Trees like this are not for everyone but everyone who does bonsai should understand the investment in a tree like this that the grower put in.
 

berobinson82

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That particular tree seems a great price (900) for the size and bark. I imagine in 5 years it could be worth WAY more than that. In the right hands that is.
 

Brent

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I am glad to see that my offerings have sparked some interesting and meaningful comments. I am in agreement with Bob Pressler on all points. Which isn't surprising since we are both growers. Nonetheless I would like to expand on many of the remarks made thus far:

No, these are certainly not beginner trees even if you have the money. I probably wouldn't sell you one if I didn't get the sense that you could not only keep it alive, but also do it justice.

There are several ways to price and value bonsai material, just as there are for anything else. The most basic method is what I like to call something's intrinsic value. This is probably the most subjective and debatable measure, especially for art and art related objects, which these trees are. As Bob has pointed out, there is the simple cost of materials, labor and overhead. On this basis, he is right, I am losing money at these prices. But there is another element in addition to the basic costs, and that is that in commodities such as these trees (and many other objects) there is a value added that is greater than the sum of the parts (or sometimes even a discount to the sum of the costs in unsuccessful efforts). So, on this basis alone, that is the intrinsic value, I think these trees are a bargain.

Unfortunately, in bonsai as well as other arts/crafts, it is extremely difficult to get the full intrinsic value unless one has quite a reputation and there is a healthy market for the product. Which brings me to the second method of pricing, which is whatever the market will bear. Often this has little to do with the intrinsic value. Since I cannot really hope to get the full intrinsic value for these trees, my pricing comes more from assessing what the market will bear (a discount to the intrinsic value). Since I began offering these trees about three years ago, I have sold almost every single one that I have put up on the site, and never have I marked down a tree unless there was some accident of nature or neglect which damaged a tree (not often). So, I am comfortable that trees certainly must not be overpriced, and most likely are slightly underpriced. After all, I have to move them to make a living.

Related to the above is the aspect of affordability. In this thread affordibility has been sometimes confused with value. These trees are certainly not affordable to most bonsai practitioners, but that does not mean that they are less valuable. It simply means that some folks simply don't have money, which is understandable. It also understandable that some or many people feel these trees would not be valuable to them. I understand this, but I don't see it as a reason to denigrate the product. For example a brand new Corvette has about zero value to me, because I see cars as transportation and little else, but I wouldn't call it junk.

You can also relate the value of bonsai trees to landscape trees. I don't mean small stuff that is cranked out of nurseries by the thousands, but large landscape material that has a sizeable overhead and fairly long development time. Due to poor economic conditions, the price of large landscape material such as 24 inch box trees has not changed much in a decade or more, despite the rate of inflation. The basic rule of thumb, here is still $100 per caliper inch. So, on this basis most bonsai material is still priced below landscape material if you consider the extra time, talent, and especially the loses that it takes to develop bonsai material compared to just growing out large landscape trunks.

Then finally, at least for me, is that I am not going to live forever. The cuttings that I make now are never going to develop into trees like this before I die. So there has been a finite number, and a rather small number at that, of trees that I could produce in my lifetime, and no more.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
 

bonsai barry

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It is sad to think when we talk value it is almost in relation to fiscal value. There are other values that I treasure more including aesthetic value and beauty.
 

Bonsai Nut

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I personally value having a forum where I can interact with so many bonsai enthusiasts. Whether or not I end up with one of Brent's trees, I feel that having the opportunity to hear about his experience is worth the price of admission. How much would that experience be worth if I hired Brent to come teach me about field-growing bonsai stock? Quite a bit :)

As we get older, my wife and I have been talking about the different value we place on "things" versus "experiences". Bonsai is a strange art form that I believe is both a thing AND an experience. I assume my trees will outlast me and someone else will both benefit from my experience with them, and will have their own journey with my trees. It is a heartening thought! Within that context is $900 for a tree a lot? Or a little? A year ago I took my family on a trip to Fiji. It cost over $10K... but the experience was priceless.
 

nathanbs

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It is sad to think when we talk value it is almost in relation to fiscal value. There are other values that I treasure more including aesthetic value and beauty.

Unfortunately or fortunately if you are selling a tree they go hand in hand
 

mcpesq817

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I had a similar thought about purchasing trees in this price range as well when I first started out. But, this is a hobby, and like most hobbies, it costs money. Not saying that everyone can or should afford stuff like this. But then again, I see lots of people out there that buy the latest tech gadgets, have expensive cell phone plans, take fancy vacations or go out to expensive dinners, buy fancy cars or fancy clothes, etc. Many of these things give fleeting pleasure, but a nice piece of bonsai stock, if you take care of it, can give you many years of pleasure. So, if I have to bring lunch to work for a few months in exchange for buying a tree like this, seems well worth it to me.

Plus, it seems that many people who talk about cost end up buying dozens, if not hundreds, of small stock. They probably have spent thousands over the years. But, would you rather have twenty $50 trees that likely won't amount to much, or a specimen tree like these? I certainly get that you would hate to lose an expensive tree, but at the same time, should I not play golf because I don't want to risk breaking a nice club?

Another thing to point out is that these are not fast growing trees like tridents by any means. It took Brent, a knowledgeable and skilled grower and bonsai practitioner, decades to grow these. You're generally lucky to see a seiju elm with a 2" caliper trunk out there, let alone the 6-8" or more caliper that these have.

I bought one of Brent's big seiju elms a couple of years ago. Not to offend Brent's photography skills, but his pictures do not do these trees justice. They really are fantastic and one of a kind.
 

Poink88

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I wonder how much this Yatsubusa will sell IF Walter Pall buys it, re-pot, trim, and wire a little.
Anyone care to guess? :)
 

Martin Sweeney

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I wonder how much this Yatsubusa will sell IF Walter Pall buys it, re-pot, trim, and wire a little.
Anyone care to guess? :)

Dario,

While I certainly don't speak for Walter, I think it is fair to say, and no condemnation of the material to say it, that if Walter purchased one of these trees, he would do a lot more than "re-pot, trim and wire a little". I know if I buy one, I would.

Regards,
Martin
 

jkd2572

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I buy trees even rough stock in the $500-$1000 price range. You get what you pay for like everything else in life. I don't understand the conversation.
 

cmeg1

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Just curious - did this Elm come from Evergreen? Reminds me of some of those mentioned above.

http://bonsaibark.com/2014/01/12/100-contest-choosing-the-right-pot/

Not sure,but it is just what I needed to see to get ideas about branching on big elms for mine I got from Brent.It is getting about that time I should search for masterpiece bonsai photos or even better like the one you posted.Thanks
 

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Poink88

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Dario,

While I certainly don't speak for Walter, I think it is fair to say, and no condemnation of the material to say it, that if Walter purchased one of these trees, he would do a lot more than "re-pot, trim and wire a little". I know if I buy one, I would.

Regards,
Martin

Martin,

I agree and do not doubt that, but the example is to gauge the change in "perceived value" of the tree once a "master" or a "star" touches a material. :)
 

nathanbs

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Martin,

I agree and do not doubt that, but the example is to gauge the change in "perceived value" of the tree once a "master" or a "star" touches a material. :)

Not much at all in my experience unless they have actually improved the tree thus directly increasing its value. Here is where time spent can equal $$$$$ as opposed to watering chopping and fertilizing not nearly as laborious or skillful tasks.
 
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