English Oak Cultivators

[The Warm Canuck]

A few Oak cultivators have caught my eye. They all appear to be hybrids of English Oaks, have small leaves and beautiful fall colors. If they are grafted it sure is hard to tell. The names of the cultivators are: Crimson Spire, Streetspire and skinny geenes Oak. Anyone have any experience with them?

 

[The Warm Canuck]

oh apparently the Crimson Spire, keeps its browned leaves throughout the winter. I like that.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Beautiful leaves!

 

[Gabler]

I'm growing out both English oak and white oak as pre-bonsai, and they respond pretty well to the abuse, so a hybrid of the two species should be much the same. That said, I'm growing them from seed, so I can't comment on the qualities of those specific cultivars.

They appear to be selected for a narrow growth habit, which means you might need to do more wiring than on the wild type, but that doesn't make them unusable.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

I'm growing out both English oak and white oak as pre-bonsai, and they respond pretty well to the abuse, so a hybrid of the two species should be much the same. That said, I'm growing them from seed, so I can't comment on the qualities of those specific cultivars.

They appear to be selected for a narrow growth habit, which means you might need to do more wiring than on the wild type, but that doesn't make them unusable.

How do they back bud? If I purchase one, I'll be trunk chopping it come spring.

 

[Gabler]

They'll respond reasonably well to a chop, provided the roots are healthy. They tend to have clusters of dormant buds at the end of each flush of growth, with alternate buds along the length of each flush of growth. One of my English oaks, for example, had four flushes of growth this summer after a chop this spring. It grew strongest from the bud nearest to the chop, but it also pushed a dormant bud halfway up the trunk, and two suckers from the lower trunk and root collar. Others, I had more severely root pruned, so they were less vigorous, but mostly pushed two flushes. One of nine died from the simultaneous tap root and trunk chops. I should emphasize that they're all relatively young. Your milage may vary when dealing with older trees.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I have no direct experience with the cultivars of Quercus you have listed. To the best of my knowledge, all oak cultivars are propagated by grafting. I do not believe a tissue culture protocol has been worked out yet specific to oak cultivars. I could be uninformed, but that is my current belief. Some of the trees you imaged from the nursery had clearly visible graft unions. Some I could not identify the graft union. Those specific trees would be better choices for bonsai.

However when, "chopping down" a grafted tree, it is important that you do not cut below the graft union. AND, that if buds emerge from below the graft union you do not allow those low buds to develop as they will be the understock species, and may have none of the desirable traits of the scion on the upper part. So your plan is good as long as you recognize that your tree will most likely be grafted. Take time and identify the graft union before trunk chopping. Be forewarned, for landscape industry, the graft union might be near the top of the tree rather than way down near the roots. Some landscape trees are triple grafts. A scion for the length of trunk is grafted on rootstock, then at the desired height, perhaps 4 or 5 feet above the root-trunkstock graft,, the trunkstock is grafted with the variety desired to be the foliage of the tree. Chopping below the upper graft will give you the trunk stock species, and chopping below the lowest graft will give you the root stock species. I doubt this effort is done for oaks, but it is fairly common for fruit trees such as apples, peaches and other stone fruit.

Do plan on your named oak cultivars to be grafted. So do not chop below the graft union.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

I have no direct experience with the cultivars of Quercus you have listed. To the best of my knowledge, all oak cultivars are propagated by grafting. I do not believe a tissue culture protocol has been worked out yet specific to oak cultivars. I could be uninformed, but that is my current belief. Some of the trees you imaged from the nursery had clearly visible graft unions. Some I could not identify the graft union. Those specific trees would be better choices for bonsai.

However when, "chopping down" a grafted tree, it is important that you do not cut below the graft union. AND, that if buds emerge from below the graft union you do not allow those low buds to develop as they will be the understock species, and may have none of the desirable traits of the scion on the upper part. So your plan is good as long as you recognize that your tree will most likely be grafted. Take time and identify the graft union before trunk chopping. Be forewarned, for landscape industry, the graft union might be near the top of the tree rather than way down near the roots. Some landscape trees are triple grafts. A scion for the length of trunk is grafted on rootstock, then at the desired height, perhaps 4 or 5 feet above the root-trunkstock graft,, the trunkstock is grafted with the variety desired to be the foliage of the tree. Chopping below the upper graft will give you the trunk stock species, and chopping below the lowest graft will give you the root stock species. I doubt this effort is done for oaks, but it is fairly common for fruit trees such as apples, peaches and other stone fruit.

Do plan on your named oak cultivars to be grafted. So do not chop below the graft union.

Yes, I would be sure to cut higher up the trunk to ensure I don't get root stock shoots.

I liked the trunk on the tree below, even grafted, it appears to me to be a pretty seemless transition. Is this the trunk you referred to as being a good candidate?

I have read that the root stock and upper graft can grow at different speeds creating a noticeable difference, as the tree ages, even in an initially well grafted tree. Is this actually a real concern?

View attachment 510602

 

[Gabler]

Yes, I would be sure to cut higher up the trunk to ensure I don't get root stock shoots.

I liked the trunk on the tree below, even grafted, it appears to me to be a pretty seemless transition. Is this the trunk you referred to as being a good candidate?

I have read that the root stock and upper graft can grow at different speeds creating a noticeable difference, as the tree ages, even in an initially well grafted tree. Is this actually a real concern?

Can you see the graft union in this one?

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Can you see the graft union in this one?

View attachment 510759

No, I can't see the graft directly but it appears that it has one due to the change in size.

Are you saying this may have started as an unnoticeable graft?

 

[AJL]

Im an English Oak cultivator because I grow a few English Oaks!!
Sorry to be pedantic but I think the word you meant to use is CULTIVAR Lol!!
Strangely here in England we dont appear to have these hybrids available, but they sound interesting. They do however appear to be hybrids , bred as selected upright forms which dont really lend themselves easily to bonsai development, but are more aimed at the street tree market for low maintenance trees intended for growing in narrow verges. For what its worth many young normal English Oak often hold their brown autumn leaves on secondary or Lammas growth late into winter if they are pruned or browsed by livestock during summer

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Im an English Oak cultivator because I grow a few English Oaks!!
Sorry to be pedantic but I think the word you meant to use is CULTIVAR Lol!!
Strangely here in England we dont appear to have these hybrids available, but they sound interesting. They do however appear to be hybrids , bred as selected upright forms which dont really lend themselves easily to bonsai development, but are more aimed at the street tree market for low maintenance trees intended for growing in narrow verges. For what its worth many young normal English Oak often hold their brown autumn leaves on secondary or Lammas growth late into winter if they are pruned or browsed by livestock during summer

I think even though it's a pyramidal growing tree, I should be able to wire it as required, I'll just have to stay on it. I sure wish I could just find English Oaks, but they're pretty scarcs or extremely expensive in my area.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Im an English Oak cultivator because I grow a few English Oaks!!
Sorry to be pedantic but I think the word you meant to use is CULTIVAR Lol!!
Strangely here in England we dont appear to have these hybrids available, but they sound interesting. They do however appear to be hybrids , bred as selected upright forms which dont really lend themselves easily to bonsai development, but are more aimed at the street tree market for low maintenance trees intended for growing in narrow verges. For what its worth many young normal English Oak often hold their brown autumn leaves on secondary or Lammas growth late into winter if they are pruned or browsed by livestock during summer

Oh thanks for that, I did actually think it was Cultivator..haha

 

[AJL]

Why dont you try collecting some of your wild native White oak as it surely must be available locally in Ontario and looks pretty similar to Q robur? - I normally look out for deer or livestock browsed saplings to collect which often have way better bonsai potential than the boring straight sticks in pots grown at conventional tree nurseries!

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Why dont you try collecting some of your wild native White oak as it surely must be available locally in Ontario and looks pretty similar to Q robur? - I normally look out for deer or livestock browsed saplings to collect which often have way better bonsai potential than the boring straight sticks in pots grown at conventional tree nurseries!

If I found one, I would collect it. Anywhere available to me doesn't have much for oak, some Burr Oaks, but I've been told their leaves don't reduce well.

 

[rockm]

FWIW, you don't want to work with "fastigate" cultivars. That means they have been selected to grow UP not out. All branching will shoot skywards and extension laterally is hard to accomplish. Any cultivar with "fastigate" or mention of "spire" are in this category. I would not choose a specialized cultivar of English oak to work into a bonsai. I'd use the main species, as it's more commonly available and tends not to have grafts.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

FWIW, you don't want to work with "fastigate" cultivars. That means they have been selected to grow UP not out. All branching will shoot skywards and extension laterally is hard to accomplish. Any cultivar with "fastigate" or mention of "spire" are in this category. I would not choose a specialized cultivar of English oak to work into a bonsai. I'd use the main species, as it's more commonly available and tends not to have grafts.

Thank you for this. I will take your advise on this and skip this purchase, specially for the price. They also had a European Hornbeam with a nice trunk that I have my eye on, so I'll grab that.

I'll keep my eye out for an English Oak and my local area for some native White Oak.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Gabler]

No, I can't see the graft directly but it appears that it has one due to the change in size.

Are you saying this may have started as an unnoticeable graft?

It's definitely grafted, and even if that graft was unnoticeable at first, it certainly is noticeable now.

I think even though it's a pyramidal growing tree, I should be able to wire it as required, I'll just have to stay on it. I sure wish I could just find English Oaks, but they're pretty scarcs or extremely expensive in my area.

It's odd to me you're having trouble finding oaks, but I see no reason you shouldn't be able to reduce the leaves of bur oaks. I forget who, but someone on here was able to reduce the leaves to about two to three inches, which is sufficiently small for larger bonsai trees. I'm growing some myself in order to give it a try.

I'll keep my eye out for an English Oak and my local area for some native White Oak.

Thanks everyone!

If nothing else, you should be able to find some trees dropping acorns.

 

[AJL]

If I found one, I would collect it. Anywhere available to me doesn't have much for oak, some Burr Oaks, but I've been told their leaves don't reduce well.

Surely you could try contacting Toronto Parks or Ontario Parks and ask some of your local park wardens for help where you could find and collect a few Oak saplings for bonsai?? Here in UK I have never been refused permission to collect from sites when I have ask the right people in the right way!

​

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@The Warm Canuck - I was curious, so I looked up Belleville on the map. Looks like a fairly small town, not likely to have "full service landscape nurseries". You might have to head towards Kingston or Toronto to find a nursery large enough to offer oaks grown from seed. I highly recommend doing so. Look at Quercus alba, the white oak, and Quercus bicolor, the Swamp white oak. Both should do reasonably well in pots, both will eventually develop fairly coarse, attractive bark and leaves will reduce with time and ramification for both. Getting an oak that is the "straight species" meaning just a plant from seed, not a named cultivar has several advantages. One is that you can "chop" to any height and the foliage that will develop will be the same as purchased.

So look further a field to find oaks. You should be able to find suitable candidates without breaking the bank.

Red Oak - Quercus rubra - occasionally has been used for bonsai, it does not develop the same coarse bark of the swamp white oak, but it makes a decent tree.,

Most other northern native oaks are not good candidates. Black oak - Q. velutina has leaves that don't reduce enough.

Bur Oak - Q. macrocarpa - is one I am experimenting with. "The Books" say its leaves are too large, what tempted me to experiment is the fact that its bark is the most rugged, coarse, and dramatic of all the cold hardy oaks. Also it is hardy to zone 3, so I can leave it out in my back yard without extra protection. So far, the "Books" are right, leaves are WAY TOO BIG. But I only have one and two degrees of ramification. I'm hoping that when I get my branching to have 4 or 5 degrees of ramification that leaf size will finally come down.