Dying mugo pine?

[CoreSeverin]

This is my first bonsai, it's not a very good specimen but it's mine. You can see it's a little mugo pine, I've had it for a couple months and lately I've noticed the needles on the lower branches are Browning. It's potted in 2 parts lava, 1 part calcined clay and about 1 part perlite. I water it daily and keep it outside in partial shade. I think it's dying but I would like a second opinion. Thank you for your input!

 

[coltranem]

I don't see the brown needles.

 

[CoreSeverin]

Sorry that picture is from a couple weeks ago. I thought I had a new picture and now I can't find it, I'll try and get the proper picture posted soon.

 

[0soyoung]

It was in that pot when you got it
OR
did you remove it from a nursery pot, clean out the nursery soil and put it into this pot of your mix 'a couple of months' or was it 'a couple of weeks' ago?

Regardless, a bit more detail about its recent history would be useful information to share in addition to the new pic.

 

[CoreSeverin]

I put it in the pot around the beginning of June, it was in a nursery pot. so it's actually only been about a month. Could it be transplant shock? Im new to bonsai so having a tree die on me right out of the gate isnt particularly surprising. I'll get a picture asap so you can see it.

 

[0soyoung]

Definitely could be. In @Vance Wood's and my opinion (and maybe some lurkers), mugos are best repotted after the summer solstice (21 Jun) - I like around August. Spring 'as buds swell' is okay, though it never worked out particularly well for me. Between bud swell and the summer solstice is not good - there's just little capacity to regrow damaged roots. Pines and conifers in general are slow to show what's going on. By the time you see discolored foliage it is usually too late. After the summer solstice one can dish out an amazing amount of abuse and mugos seemingly "don't even flinch" - they have a high capacity for root growth then.

So, I expect to see needles generally turning yellow to brown and whatever is green is kind of a deathly greyish green instead of the normal vibrant healthy green that used to be there. If this isn't what is in the pic to come, I'll leave you with the repotting advice and hide somewhere so that I can deny being incorrect in presciently diagnosing your problem.

 

[CoreSeverin]

That does sound a lot like what my tree is dealing with, brown and grayish green. Here is the long awaited picture. I hope it's enough to convey some idea of my tree. I honestly won't feel too bad if it is unable to be saved, because it's my first tree and it dosnt look very good at a all I just want to give my best effort. I picked a really crappy little mugo when I bought this tree haha.

 

[CoreSeverin]

I forgot to mention that I made a note to myself about the reporting time frame that yoh told me about. I will definitely try that. I think I'll pick up another mugo as well.

 

[0soyoung]

That's the spirit!
Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs!

Even though I know better, I still cannot give up on a tree until it is a leafless dead stick. There's still the chance, but I think it is good to observe how it passes. The surefire testament of a dead pine is stiff/hard/crumbly terminal bud. I find it amazing how some needles in the middle can seem to still be alive for the longest time ...

Lesson 2: What you did in getting rid of the original nursery soil/dirt is called 'bare rooting'. You cannot do this with a few other species, regardless of timing, notably Japanese black pine (aka JBP = pinus thunbergii) and Japanese red pine (aka JRP = pinus densiflora). I've also killed a few hemlocks (tsuga canadensis) by bare rooting. With these you should clean out the dirt from the roots on only one side of the trunk. Pot it in substrate, let grow for a year and then repot, cleaning out the other half = a process we call half bare rooting (HBR). HBR is the safe way to accomplish the task for any/every species. On the other hand deciduous species (angiosperms) can be bare rooted with impunity in spring 'as buds swell'.

I don't mean to deter you from undertaking whatever suits your fancy meanwhile, but nurseries and garden centers will be reducing prices somewhat now that the spring rush is over. And near the end of the season they will strongly slash them (but the selection will be very resticted). These are good times to buy stuff to learn with. I suggest that you grab what interests you and get more than one of each, if you are so inclined. You could then maybe repot one of a pair, say, in late-summer/early fall and the other not. Then get them through the winter and repot the remainder 'as buds swell' early next spring. Then in addition to keeping them alive and thriving, you might also experience some of those exciting bonsai things like trunk chopping a deciduous tree (e.g. a maple), maybe defoliating another, make an air layer, decandle a pine or two, and etc, for the first time if you haven't already.

 

[CoreSeverin]

Ill have to keep in mind to not bare root, I thought i had left enough of the nursery soil in but perhaps I took too much out. I am also going to get some more trees, good to know that there are ways to get a good deals on trees. I have 2 and one sapling in a huge container, but I really would like to have a few more. I like my mugo pine well enough, but its not a very visually attractive tree, i do have a soft spot for it though!

 

[Michaelb]

That's the spirit!
Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs!

Even though I know better, I still cannot give up on a tree until it is a leafless dead stick. There's still the chance, but I think it is good to observe how it passes. The surefire testament of a dead pine is stiff/hard/crumbly terminal bud. I find it amazing how some needles in the middle can seem to still be alive for the longest time ...

Lesson 2: What you did in getting rid of the original nursery soil/dirt is called 'bare rooting'. You cannot do this with a few other species, regardless of timing, notably Japanese black pine (aka JBP = pinus thunbergii) and Japanese red pine (aka JRP = pinus densiflora). I've also killed a few hemlocks (tsuga canadensis) by bare rooting. With these you should clean out the dirt from the roots on only one side of the trunk. Pot it in substrate, let grow for a year and then repot, cleaning out the other half = a process we call half bare rooting (HBR). HBR is the safe way to accomplish the task for any/every species. On the other hand deciduous species (angiosperms) can be bare rooted with impunity in spring 'as buds swell'.

I don't mean to deter you from undertaking whatever suits your fancy meanwhile, but nurseries and garden centers will be reducing prices somewhat now that the spring rush is over. And near the end of the season they will strongly slash them (but the selection will be very resticted). These are good times to buy stuff to learn with. I suggest that you grab what interests you and get more than one of each, if you are so inclined. You could then maybe repot one of a pair, say, in late-summer/early fall and the other not. Then get them through the winter and repot the remainder 'as buds swell' early next spring. Then in addition to keeping them alive and thriving, you might also experience some of those exciting bonsai things like trunk chopping a deciduous tree (e.g. a maple), maybe defoliating another, make an air layer, decandle a pine or two, and etc, for the first time if you haven't already.

Thanks for the great advise! I'm gonna get a mugo soon and info like this is priceless!
Thanks for taking the time to give your advise!

 

[coltranem]

How much did you reduce the roots to go from the nursery pot to that bonsai pot?

There is a primer on Mugo pines under resources on this site. It has a lot on good tips.

I posted some pics on my first repot over in the pine section. I will post an update in a few months hopefully it still looks good

 

[CoreSeverin]

I didnt think i took off that much, probably about 2/3. one thing i just noticed, I watered a few hours ago at 2:00pm and checked my tree at 3:00p and there is a lot of dry soil except in one spot to the left of the trunk, this is an ongoing issue that i had not noticed, and in my picture above you can actually see it there as well. I wonder if the soil is not retaining water very well?

 

[TN_Jim]

I could see it being thirsty with that mix (was my first thought) or at least it’s more than mine (first mugo, bigbox this year) sawed from pot 1/3 roots and slipped into 100% de colander -only top dressed with sifted bark...recent abuse...going alright...I’ve put sphagnum in varying degrees on many, mostly deciduous..it’s so bangin hot

I would listen to the experienced folks here, it sounds like you are receiving sound goodness.

If you don’t kill one, you aren’t trying hard enough...that’s not just bonsai, just caring for plants right?

 

[CoreSeverin]

Yeah everyone in this thread has been extremely helpful. I added 2 quarts of pine bark to the mix to try to help retention, but since my mugo was already in the pot i couldnt really get the bark in that soil. I could only put the bark in the soil i havnt used yet. I have yet to learn how to slip pot, maybe that would be a good way to start a nursery tree.

 

[TN_Jim]

Yeah everyone in this thread has been extremely helpful. I added 2 quarts of pine bark to the mix to try to help retention, but since my mugo was already in the pot i couldnt really get the bark in that soil. I could only put the bark in the soil i havnt used yet. I have yet to learn how to slip pot, maybe that would be a good way to start a nursery tree.

Slip pot: basically don’t mess with roots, put in larger pot, surround w/ soil

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bonsai/comments/34qzhk

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Slip pot: basically don’t mess with roots, put in larger pot, surround w/ soil

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bonsai/comments/34qzhk

Slip Potting - is a horrible disservice to trees and the poor noob who was convinced by someone that this is a "harmless" way to go. Slip Potting is usually as traumatic for the tree as "regular" repotting. No matter how gentle you think you are, you tend to break fine feeder roots and root hairs. This disrupts the tree's ability to absorb water and nutrients. This is guaranteed to send a weak tree into decline towards death.

In addition, if there is any significant particle size difference or compositional difference between new and old mix, there will be difficulties in watering the pot, one part will tend to stay moist, one part will tend to be dry, or dry out quicker. This can kill a tree fairly quickly also.

In summary, slip potting is usually a very poor idea, and will often lead to the compost heap.

Please stop offering slip potting as a "good option" for a weak tree, it is not a good option, even for a healthy tree, and it is really rough on a weak tree.

If you want to test my assertion, right now, go slip pot all the trees that you repotted this spring, yes, your own trees that don't need to be repotted again. Slip pot them into different containers. Then count the percentage of the survivors. You will be shocked at how poorly your healthy trees do with slip potting.

 

[0soyoung]

I didnt think i took off that much, probably about 2/3. one thing i just noticed, I watered a few hours ago at 2:00pm and checked my tree at 3:00p and there is a lot of dry soil except in one spot to the left of the trunk, this is an ongoing issue that i had not noticed, and in my picture above you can actually see it there as well. I wonder if the soil is not retaining water very well?

It isn't so much what you did, but when you did it.
After the summer solstice (circa August) it will be okay to do a complete bare root in addition to what you did. Find a couple of cheapie mugos and try this in about a month - what you did with this one and fully bare root the other. They should both be fine; just don't push the root reduction to the point that you will confident of saying, 'But you told me ....!", okay?

 

[TN_Jim]

Slip Potting - is a horrible disservice to trees and the poor noob who was convinced by someone that this is a "harmless" way to go. Slip Potting is usually as traumatic for the tree as "regular" repotting. No matter how gentle you think you are, you tend to break fine feeder roots and root hairs. This disrupts the tree's ability to absorb water and nutrients. This is guaranteed to send a weak tree into decline towards death.

In addition, if there is any significant particle size difference or compositional difference between new and old mix, there will be difficulties in watering the pot, one part will tend to stay moist, one part will tend to be dry, or dry out quicker. This can kill a tree fairly quickly also.

In summary, slip potting is usually a very poor idea, and will often lead to the compost heap.

Please stop offering slip potting as a "good option" for a weak tree, it is not a good option, even for a healthy tree, and it is really rough on a weak tree.

If you want to test my assertion, right now, go slip pot all the trees that you repotted this spring, yes, your own trees that don't need to be repotted again. Slip pot them into different containers. Then count the percentage of the survivors. You will be shocked at how poorly your healthy trees do with slip potting.

Thanks Leo, I greatly appreciate your advice. It’s good to know how detrimental slip potting can be, I’ve never heard it put in this light.

I have bare rooted all of my deciduous trees with success, and never attempted a slip pot. However, I have killed conifers by bare rooting them. In my earlier post I said that I removed 1/3 of the mugo rootmass and slipped it into de...
I did so following this (except it says to remove half, etc.):
https://www.bonsainut.com/resources/compiled-vance-wood-on-mugo-pines.23/
However, I was not recommending that repotting or slip potting should be done, only providing a definition of what slip potting is based on the reply.. which I did not do myself or advise -since I removed a third of the roots on my mugo following the thread above.

I apologize if I was unclear, and therefore potentially giving poor advice confusion or misdirection...I was really just trying to say -X is what I have done with success so far, and I wonder if this tree is thirsty...if so maybe put some pine or sphagnum on top?? Not, repot or slip pot.
I would never condone repotting a weak tree, or especially slip potting a weak tree if the soil medium is what could in part be weakening said tree, that wouldn’t make sense to retain soil potentially killing a tree.
Perhaps I should not have used the word, slipped, and rather repotted. Thanks much.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Thanks @TN_Jim for taking my comment well. I came off harsh, because you are not the only one here who has been recommending "slip potting". There's at least 3 others that have been tossing around the "slip pot" it and it will be fine.


Yes, when a tree is in trouble we all start grasping at straws for possible cures. Often consistent care is what is best, but that doesn't feel like you are "doing something".

Trees loose branches & leaves in nature, it is very rare that nature repots a tree. Usually uprooted trees die. So repotting is the most traumatic experience for a bonsai and should always be approached as if it was life threatening. Keep it in mind, and your trees will do better. For more difficult trees I will prepare them for repotting 6 months in advance, I'll stop heavy pruning, no decandling, or needle removal, extra fertilizer, just let them grow a little and bulk up before repotting. This way I can be more aggressive with roots, and the tree has the strength to recover. More important for trees with age, like 100 year old Ponderosa pines and other older trees.