Dwarf Alberta spruce

[Arizona bonsai]

I have an Italian Stone Pine that we rescued after Christmas a few years ago, it is doing ok.

In January this year I got this Dwarf Alberta Spruce from Home Depot after Christmas. I did some pruning, wiring & put in a smaller pot. I like the formal upright look & hope it lives through the summer.

Do any of the AZ desert members have any experience or advice on the spruce?

 

[Warlock]

following.. i was wondering about these .. we are in same climate.. more or less..

 

[bonsaichile]

They need a winter dormancy period. Spruces are mountain trees that need cold. I do not know how well will fare in AZ. For what is worth, they are challenging material for bonsai (same than Italian Stone pines, hate to tell you, but for different reasons: ISP's mature needles can be up to a foot long--I've seen them in Italy--and instead of reducing their size, the tree reverts to its juvenile foliage). In the case of DAS, part of the difficulty (if it survives your mild winters) is that they don't back bud reliably and, most important, that it is really hard to set the branches in place. As soon as you take the wire out, they spring back up. If you just wired your tree, you need to know this is the wrong season to do so with spruce in general. You might lose a few branches, and you must be vigilant: as soon as the wire starts biting in, it will take part of the bark with it when you take it out. This is problematic, because this is the season when branches thicken, and given their extreme flexibility, the wire will not remain in place nearly enough time to begin setting the branches. So, my advice: Do no let the wire bite. Take it out as soon as you see it beginning to do so. And then wait until October to wire it again. And be prepared for this tree to slowly decline in the next years if it cannot get enough cold hours.

 

[bonsaichile]

One more thing: Keep it out of midday and afternoon sun, or it will scorch the needles

 

[Arizona bonsai]

I removed the wire & don’t see any marks left by it.

 

[Arizona bonsai]

An update on the tree, it’s not looking good. Dropping needles but still green under the bark. There are some green needle buds on the end of branches. Here‘s hoping it lives, I like it. It is under the Ficus In the shade.

 

[Arizona bonsai]

The spruce did die, the ISP is doing ok.

 

[AnacortesSteve]

I have about 12 DAS here in Washington, they do well but the wiring just doesn't last, they spring back up and I have lost branches because the wire will bite in quickly, I am now just doing styling by cutting, I have a nice Forrest and it doesn't need a lot of style other than killing the lower branches to give it the proper age look.
My first in the green bonsai pot is doing pretty well, don't know why the branches are holding their position better than the others.
Some have a really fat trunk so may just do some fantasy trees since they are pretty ugly but I still enjoy them, they were my first nursery stock.

 

[AnacortesSteve]

I have about 12 DAS here in Washington, they do well but the wiring just doesn't last, they spring back up and I have lost branches because the wire will bite in quickly, I am now just doing styling by cutting, I have a nice Forrest and it doesn't need a lot of style other than killing the lower branches to give it the proper age look.
My first in the green bonsai pot is doing pretty well, don't know why the branches are holding their position better than the others.
Some have a really fat trunk so may just do some fantasy trees since they are pretty ugly but I still enjoy them, they were my first nursery stock.View attachment 325264View attachment 325265View attachment 325266View attachment 325267

PS this is before I weeded the forest and the dead one is what happens a lot to DAS but I wanted to keep it with the others.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

Is the trick, then, to keep DAS at a smaller size? Other than a forest planting, is a twin trunk or single tree composition easier to wire/guy wire?

 

[AnacortesSteve]

Is the trick, then, to keep DAS at a smaller size? Other than a forest planting, is a twin trunk or single tree composition easier to wire/guy wire?

The main branches will hold wire but they still all keep bending up, wire them extra low, then keep them short when all the buds try to go straight up. still enjoy all my DAS, and ISP

 

[Tentakelaertje]

Let the wire bite guys, or else you'll be wiring the next 20 years every year. These long, elastic and resinous fibers need to accept their new position and that is easiest when they don't have a choice. Twisting and cracking and ingrown wire or even making a longitudinal slice to heal over will all force the tree to produce callous along the branch, which you need to hold the bend into place. It *will* swell where the wire bites so be strategic about it. After 5 years of almost continually being in wire (couple wire reapplications inbetween just after removal of the old stuff) nearly all of the branches on mine are now staying in place. I'm in the process of fully wiring it again to get all bends and noob mistakes right but after this round I hope to keep it tidy with a couple of (guy) wires and pruning.

Things I've noticed or have been taught that severely impact the success of working DAS are:
-Keep your skin grease off the foliage (!!!)
-Don't prune off too much at once (60-70% max)
-Wire the branches in stages, eg. for a first styling keep it on the primaries/secondaries. As the branches hold better you can increase total % of wired branchlets and everything.
-Allow it to get used to new levels of sun carefully. An extra week in half shade will make the difference between fried and alive.
-They LOVE getting misted and I mist mine every evening. They seem to hate spraying though so be careful with foliar feeding.
-Work in winter, when it's not terrible weather to work on trees it's not right for them. If your hands are frozen and cold from thinking of going outside to poke around it's a perfect time to work DAS.

You defo can get away with ignoring all of the above (ask me how I know lol) but recovery time will go up so much it's no fun to look at it anymore. They can take a lot of abuse but your aftercare will have to be right on the money or you'll wait years for it to be healthy enough to touch again. The first and last especially make a big difference.
I'm no pro and my evidence is anecdotal so the rules are far from set but I hope this helps! Also, not every DAS is identical so on some you'll get away with more than others.

 

[MaciekA]

I have had similar success as @Tentakelaertje with wiring DAS. For your primaries, you need to let wire bite in a bit before they're really set. This species is no more an insta-bonsai than ezo spruce, so growing out and thickening the branches until they hold their position is part of the game.

With regards to misting, I don't mist, but I do hose down the tree in the middle of very hot days in the summer to cool it down as my DAS sits with pines in an outdoor oven hot enough to bake a pizza. I only mist when wiring/unwiring, something I've been taught by my teacher when working on ezo spruce. He was taught to mist while wiring/unwiring ezo as an apprentice in Japan.

Similar to @Tentakelaertje aside from spring pinching I don't touch my DAS again until much later in the year when temperatures have dropped. Sometimes I've worked it in September but because Oregon can sometimes get very hot even in late October, I push that work back into the dormant season now. Worth it, and this is when I work ezo at my teacher's too.

You defo can get away with ignoring all of the above (ask me how I know lol) but recovery time will go up so much it's no fun to look at it anymore

I think this is very wise with DAS . With spruce, restraint's reward is a bountiful flush, and a surplus to spend on thinning/pruning/etc. Haste's punishment is a DAS with discolored needles and very sluggish growth. Ask me how I know...

 

[AnacortesSteve]

Good tips, specially about misting when wiring, I always wear gloves when working on DAS, they smell great but you do get sap. I think the big take away as you guys mention, style the major branches while the tree is still in a grow pot, once it's in a bonsai pot, it's hard to get it to fatten up and cover the wire scars. So get your main branches set first.

 

[James W.]

@Tentakelaertje @MaciekA good information and it aligns with what I have experienced.
Would you please add your observations to my thread Dwarf Alberta Spruce, gleanings and musings ? I am trying to collect DAS wisdom and want to make sure it gets properly credited.

 

[Tentakelaertje]

Dzięki for the additions @MaciekA . Hosing it down works too, as long as the crap that's collecting in the density of the foliage gets washed away. Mine has increased a lot in foliage health after starting to mist daily. I use a garden hose connected spraying wand made by @defra, which is adjustable and basically the greatest thing I've used to water. Wearing gloves is something I also do but needles poke through easily and they make it hard to do fine wiring. Without them the needles start showing browning patches within hours so they're still in use. The needles poking through get that anyway, even when after washing hands and gloves with dishwashing soap beforehand. If I wasn't so attached to it I'd sell it ngl.

Another thing I was taught in terms of foilage management is the following 3 year schedule:
Year 1. Take new growth back past the cuticle
Year 2. Prune back to the newly developed buds at the base of the twigs
Year 3. Rest year, allow growth to replenish energy in the roots

Then it's year 1 again.

@James W. Feel free to add it to your thread dude, ofc that's fine! There's more of these DAS info collecting threads if I'm not mistaken, maybe it's an idea to integrate them to make a meta-thread like Vance's Mugo Train.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

Dzięki for the additions @MaciekA . Hosing it down works too, as long as the crap that's collecting in the density of the foliage gets washed away. Mine has increased a lot in foliage health after starting to mist daily. I use a garden hose connected spraying wand made by @defra, which is adjustable and basically the greatest thing I've used to water. Wearing gloves is something I also do but needles poke through easily and they make it hard to do fine wiring. Without them the needles start showing browning patches within hours so they're still in use. The needles poking through get that anyway, even when after washing hands and gloves with dishwashing soap beforehand. If I wasn't so attached to it I'd sell it ngl.

Another thing I was taught in terms of foilage management is the following 3 year schedule:
Year 1. Take new growth back past the cuticle
Year 2. Prune back to the newly developed buds at the base of the twigs
Year 3. Rest year, allow growth to replenish energy in the roots

Then it's year 1 again.

@James W. Feel free to add it to your thread dude, ofc that's fine! There's more of these DAS info collecting threads if I'm not mistaken, maybe it's an idea to integrate them to make a meta-thread like Vance's Mugo Train.

If I may ask, for my own clarity as I’m learning and working on my first DAS trees (coming upon the 1-year mark).. these instructions begin with the 1st year of acquiring DAS and are specific for Development stage? Or is this beginning with year 1 of being in Bonsai pot for refinement? Or is this an all-encompassing and 3-year rotating cycle in perpetuity?

 

[Kodama]

Love this informative thread. Thank you for sharing your insights. This one I had no idea- Keep your skin grease off the foliage (!!!). Are they really that sensitive to cause needle browning?

 

[MaciekA]

Are they really that sensitive to cause needle browning?

The needles are quite delicate on this species, much more delicate than ezo spruce. I personally don't believe that hand oils have any impact on needles, but incidental contact can cause a lot of mechanical damage (bending needles) very quickly and easily, and since we're generally doing more dramatic bends on this species one's average early wiring experiences with DAS might also impact sap flow to branches, discoloring needles global to a branch generally. If your wiring skill is very precise and well trained on densely-needled conifers and you are very good about distributing the forces of bends to the right places (into the wire or a wrap, or by doing incremental bending spread over years), you can avoid needle discoloration issues with this species. You can also avoid it in more internal areas in the more typical way for pinaceae-family species, by thinning out old needles wherever wire is going to go, and then wiring out the outermost detail levels with a very light wire and very light touch -- gotta be practiced because you don't want to be going back and re-fixing mistakes and jostling soft needles around. Works for ezo, works here, but DAS punishes mistakes ruthlessly

 

[Tentakelaertje]

If I may ask, for my own clarity as I’m learning and working on my first DAS trees (coming upon the 1-year mark).. these instructions begin with the 1st year of acquiring DAS and are specific for Development stage? Or is this beginning with year 1 of being in Bonsai pot for refinement? Or is this an all-encompassing and 3-year rotating cycle in perpetuity?

Great question, in essence a good time to start with this is when the tree is ready to develop pads and everything. Allow it to get comfy in a suitable pot and soil mix first, even if the tree is aesthetically ready. The nuance here tho is that if you allow the tree to run away before you get to foliage management your branches will be leggy, so find a balance between vigour and desired pad size/foliage outline. (Keep inner foliage and buds strong to largely bypass this)
Removing old needles for sure helps in this too.

Great point about the mechanical stress Maciek. I didn't believe the skin grease thing either, especially because not every DAS is showing stress from it. The foliage on mine seems to be particularly touchy, it also hates foliar feeding with a passion. Just hb101 and fish emulsion so I figured it wouldn't mind but no.. others in the same study group are spraying and touching their spruce all the time without any adverse effects.