Do bonsai produce fertile seeds?

[pale_blue_is]

Hi everyone, new to bonsai, and am wondering out of curiosity if bonsai seeds are fertile and could be planted (given that they reach that tree's mature age). It seems advantageous to plant seeds from stong, hardy bonsai specimens, even if they grow slow! But I know nothing.

Also somewhat related, how do the fruit typically taste? If I found a good, larger stock (does size affect bitterness?) of American mulberry for example could I make a few pies every year?

 

[Deleted member 32750]

Hi everyone, new to bonsai, and am wondering out of curiosity if bonsai seeds are fertile and could be planted (given that they reach that tree's mature age). It seems advantageous to plant seeds from stong, hardy bonsai specimens, even if they grow slow! But I know nothing.

Also somewhat related, how do the fruit typically taste? If I found a good, larger stock (does size affect bitterness?) of American mulberry for example could I make a few pies every year?

I read somewhere that a seed from a pine cone on a pine bonsai would be sterile but haven't actually tried to see myself. not sure about the seed from a maple bonsai or other deciduous.

I've been told in general for bonsai you don't typically want to let your trees produce seed because it spends a lot of energy to make seed that could be better spent doing something else like making new roots or shoots or setting strong buds for the next year. Or it could weaken the tree. I believe there are some exception to this for certain species. for example I've seen pictures of Larch bonsai shown with cones on it.

As for the fruit, I've never tasted a fruit from a bonsai tree, but I remember reading an article by Jonas Dupuich somewhere on Bonsai Tonight about trying a fruit from a Princess Persimmon and he said it didn't taste very good lol.

 

[penumbra]

I've been told in general for bonsai you don't typically want to let your trees produce seed because it spends a lot of energy to make seed that could be better spent doing something else like making new roots or shoots or setting strong buds for the next year. Or it could weaken the tree. I believe there are some exception to this for certain species. for example I've seen pictures of Larch bonsai shown with cones on it.

This is certainly something that is highly touted, yet there is little more thrilling than to see a bonsai with seeds, cones or fruit. Its full circle.

 

[sorce]

If you're making pies, stick me on the list!

Welcome to Crazy!

"Pie was hot Ray."

The seeds should follow the same rules as any other tree, since they're just any other tree.

The fruit's taste can probably be adjusted to a degree.

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

Bonsai are just ordinary trees kept small (+ various degrees of artistic shaping). Bonsai don't necessarily 'grow slow'. They are kept small mainly by pruning though there is some restriction caused by small pots and some other techniques. If planted in the garden your bonsai will soon grow as fast and as big as any other landscape plant the same variety.
If bonsai flower and produce seed the seed should be fertile and be able to germinate but sometimes cultural factors influence viability of seed. I have harvested cones of bonsai pines which had no viable seed. Others report good germination from seed obtained from bonsai specimens.
It is possible that some genetic factors that make an individual specimen better for bonsai could be passed on via seed but remember that every seed also has a father somewhere, not always the same plant. Also every seed is a new and unique recombination of genes so each seedling is an individual. To truly propagate the same genetics we need to resort to asexual propagation - cuttings, layers and grafting - and some growers do that to maintain successful lines of good bonsai stock.

Re fruit: Fruit quality is mostly genetic. If the fruit is good on a specimen in the garden it should also taste good from a bonsai version of the same tree.

I remember reading an article by Jonas Dupuich somewhere on Bonsai Tonight about trying a fruit from a Princess Persimmon and he said it didn't taste very good lol.

Princess persimon is not generally a table variety. Only a few persimmon sp and varieties developed from them taste good. Others are terrible whether large or small. I once ate a peach from a double red flowering peach (landscape). Won't try that again either so I assume those double flowering types are from different lines to the edible varieties we enjoy.

One of the real problems with seed from bonsai is that most are removed before they mature when we trim and prune to maintain the shape.

 

[penumbra]

Re fruit: Fruit quality is mostly genetic. If the fruit is good on a specimen in the garden it should also taste good from a bonsai version of the same tree.

A bit of fish poop fertilizer helps quite a bit.
Seriously!

 

[Forsoothe!]

Seeds is seeds. There is no difference in quality or for that matter, quantity, given that the owner provides supporting fert's and physical support for branches. Motherhood is a big deal in nature and many trees will abandon branches to ripen seed. This can be unfortunate in bonsai. The second flush can also be delayed to to point of not occurring in a season where the seed crop maturation needs to be completed before the second flush and/or bud setting for the following year can begin. This is common in Azalea grown outside of its native zone (with fewer than typical growing season days for a given variety). Heavy fruit will break unsupported branches for apples, et al. So yes, you can have seed and fruit, if you are willing to pay the piper.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

As long as the needs are met for a tree to be fertile, it doesn't matter whether it is in a bonsai pot or not.

I have a single male princess persimmon in my bonsai garden (flowers, but no fruit), whose sole purpose is make sure that the fruit on all my female trees is fertile

Of course, there are practical considerations that need to be considered. For example, I would not recommend trying to grow a grapefruit bonsai tree. Not because it isn't possible, but because the fruit is so massive. When one talks about making a pie from the fruit on a bonsai tree, it would have to be a relatively large tree to produce that much fruit.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Or one of those little pies!

 

[Crawforde]

Or a small pie.
A mame sized pie dish for a shohin tree.

 

[Forsoothe!]

A One-Berry pie?

 

[SeanS]

Dennis Vojtilla has a Gravenstein apple bonsai that produces 20+ apples some years that he says his wife makes apple pies with

 

[Bonsai Nut]

 

[Forsoothe!]

Dennis Vojtilla has a Gravenstein apple bonsai that produces 20+ apples some years that he says his wife makes apple pies with

With a tree this size or bigger that's possible...

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@pale_blue_is

Raising bonsai from seed is the "slow route" to bonsai success. The first 5 to 10 years of raising bonsai from seed is the "nurseryman's phase" of bonsai. The techniques are mostly just plain old nursery style horticulture, with very few "bonsai techniques" applied. Most exhibition quality bonsai spend a decade or more being grown to a size 5 to 10 times larger than their finished bonsai size. If you tour a bonsai exhibit, the pine or flowering apricot that is about 18 inches tall (roughly half meter) most likely spent 5 or more years being 15 feet (roughly 5 meters) tall. Bonsai from seed are first grown up and out to develop the trunk diameter. Then once the caliper of the trunk is sufficient for the image one wants to create, the tree is reduced in size until it has achieved the desired image. The large diameter trunk is needed to force perspective for the viewer of the bonsai. Slender trunks the diameter of a pencil or less do not visually create the visual impact of a large old tree in miniature. So the technique is to develop a trunk first, then reduce the size of the tree to the desired size of the finished bonsai.

If you are serious about learning bonsai, please read this thread. There is some good advice. In particular, first learning the horticulture of the species you would like to work with. Then acquiring a collect of trees in different phases of bonsai development. Don't just have young seedlings. Have a collection that includes seedlings, a few trees from nursery stock, and a few collected trees, whether collected from urban landscapes or from the wild. Also a tree or two that have been developed bonsai, and are already exhibit quality, as these mature developed bonsai will teach you the greatest number of bonsai techniques. There are techniques used only for exhibition quality trees that would never be used on younger material. So if you want to learn bonsai, you need a range of material in all phases of development.

Also network with local bonsai hobbyists and artists. Seeing the techniques done, live and in person, is an experience that You Tube simply can not compete with.

How to be a successful bonsai beginner

After reading a lot of beginner threads on this site over the years, I am going to create a thread of advice about how to get the best start on your bonsai journey. Simply put - take advantage of all of the people who have gone before you! At some level there is a bit of skeptic in all of us...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[pale_blue_is]

@pale_blue_is

Raising bonsai from seed is the "slow route" to bonsai success. The first 5 to 10 years of raising bonsai from seed is the "nurseryman's phase" of bonsai. The techniques are mostly just plain old nursery style horticulture, with very few "bonsai techniques" applied. Most exhibition quality bonsai spend a decade or more being grown to a size 5 to 10 times larger than their finished bonsai size. If you tour a bonsai exhibit, the pine or flowering apricot that is about 18 inches tall (roughly half meter) most likely spent 5 or more years being 15 feet (roughly 5 meters) tall. Bonsai from seed are first grown up and out to develop the trunk diameter. Then once the caliper of the trunk is sufficient for the image one wants to create, the tree is reduced in size until it has achieved the desired image. The large diameter trunk is needed to force perspective for the viewer of the bonsai. Slender trunks the diameter of a pencil or less do not visually create the visual impact of a large old tree in miniature. So the technique is to develop a trunk first, then reduce the size of the tree to the desired size of the finished bonsai.

If you are serious about learning bonsai, please read this thread. There is some good advice. In particular, first learning the horticulture of the species you would like to work with. Then acquiring a collect of trees in different phases of bonsai development. Don't just have young seedlings. Have a collection that includes seedlings, a few trees from nursery stock, and a few collected trees, whether collected from urban landscapes or from the wild. Also a tree or two that have been developed bonsai, and are already exhibit quality, as these mature developed bonsai will teach you the greatest number of bonsai techniques. There are techniques used only for exhibition quality trees that would never be used on younger material. So if you want to learn bonsai, you need a range of material in all phases of development.

Also network with local bonsai hobbyists and artists. Seeing the techniques done, live and in person, is an experience that You Tube simply can not compete with.

How to be a successful bonsai beginner

After reading a lot of beginner threads on this site over the years, I am going to create a thread of advice about how to get the best start on your bonsai journey. Simply put - take advantage of all of the people who have gone before you! At some level there is a bit of skeptic in all of us...

www.bonsainut.com

Thanks for the advice Leo. I just purchased a few small trees from a local nursery and intend to go about it as you describe. I have 2 douglas firs, a Chinese boxwood, a Pinus Strobus (which I know isn't ideal but the trunk was nice for 30$ and pruning/shaping seem minimal), and a 4 1/2 foot red dragon japanese maple Im probably going to plant in ground and air layer (is it too late for that?). Strongly desire to cultivate a few tamarack, jack pine, and Eastern larch, from the nursery or as yamadori (I'm in Mi). Planning on getting my DNR collectors permit next time I go to a park. I know easier and more traditional trees are advised as well, so maybe I'll get a Chinese elm, I'd love to try another hinoki cypress. (pruned a small one too late and it died of frost shock I think), maybe a Japanese black pine.

I plan on visiting a few different nurseries nearby, I seem to have a lot of options, and getting things of a various age once I have a clear picture of how much full sun I have. Pacing myself and looking for quality trees of all ages that have a good headstart on their trunk and branch pads. Definitely no plans to start from seed any time soon. I have a little bonsai kit I was regifted that I'm going to plant with my gf without much care if they sprout, but no plans aside from that. Mostly asking out of curiosity, and if bonsai could hold ecological value as sort of preserved specimens (sometimes well over 100 years) that hold seed that can reproduce to larger specimens in the wild. But then again, many bonsai are specialized dwarf or Nana cultivars.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Thanks for the advice Leo. I just purchased a few small trees from a local nursery and intend to go about it as you describe. I have 2 douglas firs, a Chinese boxwood, a Pinus Strobus (which I know isn't ideal but the trunk was nice for 30$ and pruning/shaping seem minimal), and a 4 1/2 foot red dragon japanese maple Im probably going to plant in ground and air layer (is it too late for that?). Strongly desire to cultivate a few tamarack, jack pine, and Eastern larch, from the nursery or as yamadori (I'm in Mi). Planning on getting my DNR collectors permit next time I go to a park. I know easier and more traditional trees are advised as well, so maybe I'll get a Chinese elm, I'd love to try another hinoki cypress. (pruned a small one too late and it died of frost shock I think), maybe a Japanese black pine.

I plan on visiting a few different nurseries nearby, I seem to have a lot of options, and getting things of a various age once I have a clear picture of how much full sun I have. Pacing myself and looking for quality trees of all ages that have a good headstart on their trunk and branch pads. Definitely no plans to start from seed any time soon. I have a little bonsai kit I was regifted that I'm going to plant with my gf without much care if they sprout, but no plans aside from that. Mostly asking out of curiosity, and if bonsai could hold ecological value as sort of preserved specimens (sometimes well over 100 years) that hold seed that can reproduce to larger specimens in the wild. But then again, many bonsai are specialized dwarf or Nana cultivars.

Captive (cultivated) populations of any plant are a poor substitute for naturally reproducing wild populations. Conservation of native habits is key. A captive population will always have changes in gene frequencies due to humans selecting "the ones" that produce the next generation.

Jack pines are high on my list of "good species for bonsai". Needles are relatively short, and they are incredibly winter hardy. And drought tolerant too. I have a couple grafted cultivars of jack pine and they are exceptional.