Did I leave the trunk of this oak too long?

[Big Country Bonsai]

I collected this oak this weekend and was able to get some nice feeder roots out with it. I left the trunks long with the intention of maybe cutting them back shorter in the next couple of days. I’ve already shortened them to where I have the trunks blocked out in the edited picture but I’m wondering if I should shorten them more... specifically the straight trunk. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[TN_Jim]

kill the one on the left and keep it in the composition...I’m not kidding I’ve been thinking about such things naturally around these parts

 

[0soyoung]

Yes.

However, it doesn't always work out. Sometimes one chops and the thing dies. The insurance, though, is to chop no lower than the lowest branch. Later you may get buds to pop lower down so that you can chop yet lower down, closer to the ground/roots.

There is a pair of rules of thumb to help you figure out about how low you want to chop. One is that the final height of your bonsai should be only about 6 times the trunk caliper. More than 6 times makes for thinner more feminine styles and ultimately, at well more than 12x, literati. Less than 6 times the caliper is good for making sumo or sumo-ish masculine forms. So, if you have a 2 inch caliper trunk, you'll be aiming for a final bonsai height of about 12 inches, or maybe as tall as 24 inches of feminine grace.

The second rule of thumb is that the lowest brach(es) ought to be about one-third of the tree height. If you want taper, this is likely where you will want to chop the trunk to grow the next section, so that it has taper (two branches, chop the trunk, one branch is the new leader, developed into the next section of trunk). This guides you to wanting to chop a 2 inch caliper trunk at something like 4 to 8 inches.

Of course, you could choose to not chop it this low. Your tree has really nice bark and a bit of taper and a little bit of movement. It will be years and years until any new growth from a chop will have bark like that. You could hide the newer trunk behind foliage, but maybe it would be better to hide a high chop and the wound behind foliage for the foreseeable future. If so, then you will want to chop the trunk(s) safely below your planned bonsai height. You'll need to think through your objectives and decide. Regardless of your choice, it think you will conclude the trunks need to be shortened further.

Again, chop only to an existing branch. Life will be more enjoyable.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Patience grasshopper. Did you wish this trees death? Once leaves shed all food has gone into storage in roots. The caveat being that roots and food were cut off in collection. How much stored energy was lost? Will tree even survive Fall collection? Perhaps could be cut back some(?). If doing so might as well take straight trunk back to lowest branch. IF tree survives some likelihood of lower branches growing from that trunk. Late collections without root recovery time before freezing need winter protection from freezing! Can you give this? My hope for its survival.

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

Patience grasshopper. Did you wish this trees death? Once leaves shed all food has gone into storage in roots. The caveat being that roots and food were cut off in collection. How much stored energy was lost? Will tree even survive Fall collection? Perhaps could be cut back some(?). If doing so might as well take straight trunk back to lowest branch. IF tree survives some likelihood of lower branches growing from that trunk. Late collections without root recovery time before freezing need winter protection from freezing! Can you give this? My hope for its survival.

The three red oaks and two white oaks I collected last year during the fall are doing good and according to Alvaro the fall is a great time to collect oaks. These red oaks seem to be pretty resilient and have good feeder roots compared to most. I think it will be fine. And yes, I can provide frost protection if needed. I’ll prob leave the right trunk where it is for now and possibly lower the left trunk to first branch.

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

Yes.

However, it doesn't always work out. Sometimes one chops and the thing dies. The insurance, though, is to chop no lower than the lowest branch. Later you may get buds to pop lower down so that you can chop yet lower down, closer to the ground/roots.

There is a pair of rules of thumb to help you figure out about how low you want to chop. One is that the final height of your bonsai should be only about 6 times the trunk caliper. More than 6 times makes for thinner more feminine styles and ultimately, at well more than 12x, literati. Less than 6 times the caliper is good for making sumo or sumo-ish masculine forms. So, if you have a 2 inch caliper trunk, you'll be aiming for a final bonsai height of about 12 inches, or maybe as tall as 24 inches of feminine grace.

The second rule of thumb is that the lowest brach(es) ought to be about one-third of the tree height. If you want taper, this is likely where you will want to chop the trunk to grow the next section, so that it has taper (two branches, chop the trunk, one branch is the new leader, developed into the next section of trunk). This guides you to wanting to chop a 2 inch caliper trunk at something like 4 to 8 inches.

Of course, you could choose to not chop it this low. Your tree has really nice bark and a bit of taper and a little bit of movement. It will be years and years until any new growth from a chop will have bark like that. You could hide the newer trunk behind foliage, but maybe it would be better to hide a high chop and the wound behind foliage for the foreseeable future. If so, then you will want to chop the trunk(s) safely below your planned bonsai height. You'll need to think through your objectives and decide. Regardless of your choice, it think you will conclude the trunks need to be shortened further.

Again, chop only to an existing branch. Life will be more enjoyable.

Would you chop both trunks shorter? I have more thick branches to play with on the right one so could possibly lower both of them.

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

kill the one on the left and keep it in the composition...I’m not kidding I’ve been thinking about such things naturally around these parts

How would one go about selectively killing a trunk? Not sure I want to take that drastic approach just yet. Do you have any examples of this in bonsai?

 

[TN_Jim]

How would one go about selectively killing a trunk? Not sure I want to take that drastic approach just yet. Do you have any examples of this in bonsai?

This is extreme and likely insane advice or thought. I wish I did know of examples of this, and have wondered lately if it is even long-term horticulturally sound. However, this is something I commonly see in the wild and find compelling. I would think that something akin to this approach may have been tried in forest planting.

Not that you should, but to kill a trunk, I would constantly remove all foliage

 

[TN_Jim]

How would one go about selectively killing a trunk? Not sure I want to take that drastic approach just yet. Do you have any examples of this in bonsai?

....Eventually it should not be able to sustain itself.

Either way, the trunk on the left is narrower and should therefore be smaller as in mother-daughter...or in my weird thought -mother...deceased great grandmother!!?
Geez..that was hard to write. Listen to Oso.

 

[Zach Smith]

I collected this oak this weekend and was able to get some nice feeder roots out with it. I left the trunks long with the intention of maybe cutting them back shorter in the next couple of days. I’ve already shortened them to where I have the trunks blocked out in the edited picture but I’m wondering if I should shorten them more... specifically the straight trunk. Let me know what you guys think.View attachment 270737

Reduce the right hand trunk by half and the left hand trunk by two thirds. Plan to change the planting angle next year to make the right hand trunk more upright. Build from there. For God's sake don't kill the left hand trunk. Nothing good will come of it.

 

[sorce]

I like the kill it off idea.

Sorce

 

[peterbone]

Yes.

However, it doesn't always work out. Sometimes one chops and the thing dies. The insurance, though, is to chop no lower than the lowest branch. Later you may get buds to pop lower down so that you can chop yet lower down, closer to the ground/roots.

There is a pair of rules of thumb to help you figure out about how low you want to chop. One is that the final height of your bonsai should be only about 6 times the trunk caliper. More than 6 times makes for thinner more feminine styles and ultimately, at well more than 12x, literati. Less than 6 times the caliper is good for making sumo or sumo-ish masculine forms. So, if you have a 2 inch caliper trunk, you'll be aiming for a final bonsai height of about 12 inches, or maybe as tall as 24 inches of feminine grace.

The second rule of thumb is that the lowest brach(es) ought to be about one-third of the tree height. If you want taper, this is likely where you will want to chop the trunk to grow the next section, so that it has taper (two branches, chop the trunk, one branch is the new leader, developed into the next section of trunk). This guides you to wanting to chop a 2 inch caliper trunk at something like 4 to 8 inches.

Of course, you could choose to not chop it this low. Your tree has really nice bark and a bit of taper and a little bit of movement. It will be years and years until any new growth from a chop will have bark like that. You could hide the newer trunk behind foliage, but maybe it would be better to hide a high chop and the wound behind foliage for the foreseeable future. If so, then you will want to chop the trunk(s) safely below your planned bonsai height. You'll need to think through your objectives and decide. Regardless of your choice, it think you will conclude the trunks need to be shortened further.

Again, chop only to an existing branch. Life will be more enjoyable.

I don't think the rule of 6 times the trunk width really applies to multi-trunks. Typically you would have narrower trunks because of the overall effect of multiple trunks creating greater visual mass. The rule of the first branch height probably still applies but there's always the chance of new buds popping out lower down or thread grafting new branches. I certainly wouldn't reduce the right hand trunk any more as it has nice movement and taper all the way up. With the left hand trunk being the "daughter", and also quite straight, I would reduce it significantly. However, I wouldn't reduce it now as your primary concern is root recovery and tree health. Great material though, especially the bark texture.

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

Here’s the view from the other side. I really think this may be the front but I liked the wider space between the trunks from the other side. What do y’all think? Again this was pre trim. And below that is an in process dig pic showing the great bark I really expected to find a massive tap root being that it was growing in sand but it was actually mostly lateral roots!

 

[0soyoung]

What do y’all think?

It doesn't matter what we all think.

I tried to give you some details to 'engineer' your vision. Peter has digested this a bit for you. Zack has given you the bottom line very clearly and simply. Jim in Tennessee says he would prefer a single trunk.

It is time for you to think about YOUR TREE and what YOU are going to DO with it. Imagine its future and think though what your next steps will be. Alternatively, identify why you wouldn't do exactly what Zack recommended. If you cannot identify any reason(s), just go with what he, Zack, said. Then post again sometime next year.

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

It doesn't matter what we all think.

I tried to give you some details to 'engineer' your vision. Peter has digested this a bit for you. Zack has given you the bottom line very clearly and simply. Jim in Tennessee says he would prefer a single trunk.

It is time for you to think about YOUR TREE and what YOU are going to DO with it. Imagine its future and think though what your next steps will be. Alternatively, identify why you wouldn't do exactly what Zack recommended. If you cannot identify any reason(s), just go with what he, Zack, said. Then post again sometime next year.

You’re right. I need to just take charge on this thing. It’s just that I’m new to bonsai and don’t want to screw up on the nice piece of material. The only chancy thing is that the lowest branch on the straight trunk is not very much lower than where I’ve already reduced it to. So I’m either stuck with leaving it tall for now or reducing it to just a trunk and hoping for buds to pop from the trunk. Thanks everyone for helping out

 

[Tieball]

Here’s the view from the other side. I really think this may be the front but I liked the wider space between the trunks from the other side. What do y’all think? Again this was pre trim. And below that is an in process dig pic showing the great bark I really expected to find a massive tap root being that it was growing in sand but it was actually mostly lateral roots! View attachment 270773View attachment 270774

I like this view. And I’d keep both trunks. There’s no reason to have to eliminate one. Nature will help you along with the growth of both And I believe you’ll find the two trunks an exciting challenge. I regret eliminating some second trunks on trees I have grown. One trunk should be shorter than the other. Both are attractive and offer potential.

 

[Tieball]

You should really go with the way you like....there’s no time clock ticking a countdown for an immediate action. I’ve found that giving a tree time to be healthy....for more than just one season..is a good path. Bring this tree around to superior health. You’ll discover your direction in that time. Take your time, your way, listen and absorb, and in the end make it your choice. You have an excellent tree with great potential in front of you.

 

[Tieball]

Hmmmmm.....makes me want to dig up some of those Oak trees I’ve been pruning back in my wooded area for a few years. I need to find the right timing in my zone. I look forward to seeing how your tree responds and buds back.