Design help JBP

[johnl445]

Hello friends, I purchased this cascading Japanese black pine last year. It was recently repotted by the previous owner, so I’m not doing any work to it right now, just letting it recover. I’m not crazy about the initial design of the tree, or the roots/nebari
I came across some photos of this beautiful tree ( photo number three )
and wanted to know is a possible to mimic the semi cascade design of this tree. I think it looks more attractive and it will absorb sun light more easily, because it’s on a horizontal plane.
The second part to my question is in photo number four. The roots of this Japanese black pine are much more attractive. It looks like a perfectly tight wound ball of roots. How do you go about achieving this? if you look at the roots on my tree, they are not tightly packed. They look as if they’re all over the place.
Now, I have realistic expectations. I’m sure it’s impossible to accomplish exact carbon copies of the sample photos, but it’s nice to have some goals for my tree.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Whoa Doggies! Pull those reins back really hard to stop that runaway steed!

Thinking changing the style would be a darn shame. The tree purchased is years old and relatively rarely attempted. It has awesome bones and could, with help, be finished into an incredible tree… which likely it was at some point in its past.

Roots, foliage and tail are all relatively fixable. Just will require patience and some expertise. I’d get a pro to help at least a couple times a year to start. Choose someone who is good with ancient pine trees. NE Bonsai or your local club likely would have a good recommendation. One could learn an awful lot working with this tree.

Yet if a semi cascade is for you, please sell or trade this tree to someone who is up for it.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[namnhi]

The second pic without the cascade part looks pretty awesome. That looks more like the photo 3 you are working toward. You literally turning a full cascade into semi cascade. You could start there if you have to change it to look like pic 3.
It tough to give suggestion from looking at 2d pics.

 

[bwaynef]

I think I'd start w/ a repot at a better angle. Until its safe to do that, stick this pot in another round pot at a more semi-cascade angle. That'll help you visualize it as well as let the the tree start growing stuff at the new angle. Watering will be an adventure for you. See what growing it at a different angle will get you before thinking about doing anything more drastic.

 

[johnl445]

Whoa Doggies! Pull those reins back really hard to stop that runaway steed!

Thinking changing the style would be a darn shame. The tree purchased is years old and relatively rarely attempted. It has awesome bones and could, with help, be finished into an incredible tree… which likely it was at some point in its past.

Roots, foliage and tail are all relatively fixable. Just will require patience and some expertise. I’d get a pro to help at least a couple times a year to start. Choose someone who is good with ancient pine trees. NE Bonsai or your local club likely would have a good recommendation. One could learn an awful lot working with this tree.

Yet if a semi cascade is for you, please sell or trade this tree to someone who is up for it.

Cheers
DSD sends

Hahh, that is a great response about the runaway steed. I’m no opposed to leaving the original design, you guys have a lot more experience than me @namnhi
@bwaynef The tree feels like it needs an apex. And I thought it would be just easier to change the angle of the my tree into a semi, as opposed to growing a whole new apex.

Here are two example photos of similar style trees, and a picture of my son with my tree.

these trees look more complete. I look forward to hearing your feedback.

 

[Shibui]

The tree feels like it needs an apex.

Your tree almost has an apex but it has not been fully developed yet. It probably just needs time.
My first reaction was the T shaped initial bend where there appears to be 3 branches - 1 up, 1 straight out and the 3rd is the main trunk going down. I suspect removing the straight out branch will divide up sections and make the up branch look more like a developing apex. Another possibility would be remove the thick upright branch and keep the straight our one as the developing apex. That may work better if you go ahead with the change of angle.
Note that not all cascade trees need a living apex. The balance can be: lining apex; dead wood apex; root mass (see your first inspiration tree)

To root mass: Your inspiration tree is old. Every year the roots thicken similar to the trunk and branches. Eventually the roots on your tree will join and fuse into a similar mass but it will take time. The only way I know of to hurry the process is to allow more growth to speed up thickening. Burying the roots may also help but I suspect you don't really want to use either of those techniques to get the roots of your dreams with this tree at this time. You'll just have to fall back on patience.

FWIW I agree with the proposed change of angle. I've always struggled to maintain full cascade trees long term. Sun and apical dominance are the 2 enemies of full cascade bonsai. Half cascade is so much easier.
The good thing is that you have plenty of time to consider all the options until repot time.

 

[johnl445]

@Shibui if I just said a simple “thank you” for your response, I feel it would be insufficient. Extremely grateful would be more appropriate. You would make a great teacher if you want one already. Not to mention, everyone else’s helpful responses as well.
In the short time period I’ve had this tree, I’m already feeling the time constraints of maintaining a full cascade. between water and sunlight, and looking ahead, I’d like to make this tree easier to maintain. I’m not opposed to burying the roots, if it helps gain some time. What would you bury the roots in, Spagnum moss, or just the same pot and mix that’s already been used for the tree?

 

[Shibui]

What would you bury the roots in, Spagnum moss, or just the same pot and mix that’s already been used for the tree?

I would just plant the roots deeper in the same mix you use for your trees. If the pot is tall enough just transplant deeper next time if that's your plan.
Adding sphagnum or any other different mix makes it way more difficult to monitor soil moisture and can lead to dehydration or root rot from over watering.

 

[RODERLO]

A slight angle change and compression of the apex could already set you up to what you’re envisioning.

 

[Paradox]

Wow.....
Agree with the above comments.
That tree is really good already, it just needs more time for refinement. The change of angle suggested above would get you closer to the preferred tree.

Whole heartedly agree with Deep Sea, if you don't like the tree, sell it and get one that makes you happy. Trying to change your tree to the one you say you prefer would be a crime.

Also, use a well draining bonsai mix for pines. If you put that tree in sphagnum moss, it will stay too wet, rot the roots and kill the tree.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Definitely can build a new apex, that will likely be pretty easy .

The nebari was puzzling to me when first observed. Doesn’t seem right for such an ancient tree …?

Looking a bit closer, it appears quite possible, by the taper/lines that at of the the last repottings both the tail angle was lowered and the tree base was raised up out of the media.

There is a simple temporary assist to help the nebari get a head start on the new angle… besides chocking up the tree side of the pot right now. (Another more stable idea is to craft a cradle, holding the pot at the desired angle. )

Craft a wood etc cofferdam about 3” diameter around the outside of the nebari. Then angle the top of the cofferdam at the new desired new angle and fill with media. Likely adding moss to the media would help spur growth.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[johnl445]

@Paradox , thanks. I do like the tree. I just want the tree to look the best that it can. And you’re right, time will help me get there.
@RODERLO , is it possible to draw a sketch on top of the picture of the tree, so I can get a visual of what a compressed apex looks like.
Or even a sample picture of another tree

@Deep Sea Diver I will build a cofferdam to assist in the root development. Here are a couple more pictures of the roots, hopefully this helps.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

…..
@Deep Sea Diver I will build a cofferdam to assist in the root development. Here are a couple more pictures of the roots, hopefully this helps.
[/QUOTE]

Sure does. The cofferdam may end op hiding a lot of flaws.

Feed the tree well this year…. Throughout the winter too and into the spring until the tree is decandled in May-June depending on the timing in Boston.



Remove all of the red marked root crossing trunk now.

Blue crossing root has already been damaged - Likely can remove now too. If really concerned, cut root 1/2 way through and cut putty. Remove root in late fall-early winter or wait to spring.

Top knob root. This is the reason though the tree had angle change. It would have been under the media with the trunk tipped up…. Almost looks like it has/had a small root at end. When raising level of media the new angle would mostly cover cover with media. If so, score under the end of the root protruding until the green cambium is showing. Soak underside with Clonex, use Saran Wrap or other method to hold the clonex in place for at least six hours. When complete, take away Saran Wrap, pour extra clonex onto pre soaked sphagnum moss/mixed with small media. Stuff under and beside root. Cover all with media when filling cofferdam.

If cofferdam / new media level covers the flaws below, disregard. If not, consider doing the following.

Green crossing root. Cut 1/2 way through, cut putty. Remove in early winter spring

Gold hook root - If repotting explore the roots under this area. Often there is one under or nearby and going in the correct direction, If so remove.

That should get you started.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[johnl445]

…..
@Deep Sea Diver I will build a cofferdam to assist in the root development. Here are a couple more pictures of the roots, hopefully this helps.

Sure does. The cofferdam may end op hiding a lot of flaws.

Feed the tree well this year…. Throughout the winter too and into the spring until the tree is decandled in May-June depending on the timing in Boston.

View attachment 553405

Remove all of the red marked root crossing trunk now.

Blue crossing root has already been damaged - Likely can remove now too. If really concerned, cut root 1/2 way through and cut putty. Remove root in late fall-early winter or wait to spring.

Top knob root. This is the reason though the tree had angle change. It would have been under the media with the trunk tipped up…. Almost looks like it has/had a small root at end. When raising level of media the new angle would mostly cover cover with media. If so, score under the end of the root protruding until the green cambium is showing. Soak underside with Clonex, use Saran Wrap or other method to hold the clonex in place for at least six hours. When complete, take away Saran Wrap, pour extra clonex onto pre soaked sphagnum moss/mixed with small media. Stuff under and beside root. Cover all with media when filling cofferdam.

If cofferdam / new media level covers the flaws below, disregard. If not, consider doing the following.

Green crossing root. Cut 1/2 way through, cut putty. Remove in early winter spring

Gold hook root - If repotting explore the roots under this area. Often there is one under or nearby and going in the correct direction, If so remove.

That should get you started.

Cheers
DSD sends
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for the homework assignment @Deep Sea Diver , I’m good now till spring

 

[johnl445]

Good morning DSD, here is the new changed angle of the tree and would love to hear your thoughts. I’m gonna build a plastic cofferdam (cut plastic flower pot) this weekend and follow your suggestions. The picture that shows the underside of the tree. Should I be concerned where there is a t intersection of branching , I remember reading that that area can begin to swell and create inverse Taper

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Good morning DSD, here is the new changed angle of the tree and would love to hear your thoughts. I’m gonna build a plastic cofferdam (cut plastic flower pot) this weekend and follow your suggestions.

Hmm. Not so sure about this angle. But the tree isn’t styled properly yet. Everything can change then.

Honestly haven’t seen many be able to pull that angle off, yet did find a couple. The first is the very best imho.

https://bonsaibark.com/2014/10/22/semi-cascade-not-windswept/

https://wazakurajapan.com/blogs/news/learn-about-cascade-and-semi-cascade-bonsai-styles. (Second tree down)

The picture that shows the underside of the tree. Should I be concerned where there is a t intersection of branching , I remember reading that that area can begin to swell and create inverse Taper

The is an ancient tree as they go. The rules about bar branches do not necessarily apply. Doubt swelling will be an issue at this point anyways as they have been there for many years. One can also be elimated if needed when the tree is styled.

Definitely believe there are a couple things that need to be done.

The first one would be to get the tree wired up (in late fall) and the branches laid out so the branches are separate and organized and all foliage gets the maximum amount of sun/ auxin. It would help if they organized were in harmony. This will help you and others visualize what’s possible.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[clem]

i would also lift the tree up, and maybe shorten a little the cascading branch because for me it is a little too long for the trength of the trunk.

Nothing really original, classic virtual ->

 

[johnl445]

@clem thank you, that’s a beautiful drawing. I can’t believe that’s my tree.