derek7745's first maple - advice is welcome!

[Timbo]

No, i'll check it out next year. Sometimes they put the disease trees out there, so you gotta be careful.
I have enough regular JM's that if i can increase my cuttings/air layer rate i would have plenty. My fav though is Lace leaf, which would have problems surviving out here even in the ground.
Yeah we can't always get what.

 

[rockm]

If there is a way to avoid using supplemental heat sources than he should by all means do it. But he might be pushing the limits of what can survive in his climate as others have suggested.

In all seriousness, is it really that unusual for people to use supplemental heating systems for their bonsai in the winter? Why, in your opinion, is the determining factor for what species one should use for bonsai whether it will survive in your climate without supplemental heat i.e. buried in mulch on the ground or in an unheated building? I seem to recall lots of folks on this site discussing green houses, heating their sheds/garages etc. See JudyB's post (#3) in this thread for instance: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/another-winter-thread-cause-i’m-a-newbie.30325/#post-506879
What I'm suggesting is no different than what she is suggesting. Well, there is one exception, I'm suggesting that you electronically control the temperature whereas she wasn't specific about that.

This is my last post unless the OP requests or has a question as I do not want to derail the thread. I'm hoping these questions and discussion will help him learn and make the right decisions for his situation. Thanks.

Keeping a tree in a cold greenhouse and using a heat mat are very different things.

The BUILDINGS hold the relative heat in the atmosphere surrounding the ENTIRE plant. The overall environment in a greenhouse of heated shed is warmer and more humid.

A heat mat does no such thing. It provides heat only to SOME of the roots--this is a variable thing depending on how deep the freeze is. In deep cold, you're kidding yourself if you think a heat mat is keeping that deep cold out of the root mass. A heat mat under a tree outside offers very little, if any advantages to simple mulch covering.

I went through all of this when I got a live oak that is marginally hardy in my winters. Heat mats wouldn't cut it. I keep it in a cold greenhouse for the winter. Have for years.

Mats weren't made to keep mature plants "warm" in the winter, but are used for shorter term propagation of seeds and seedlings. They can also fail in many circumstances. Even a short power outage could allow things to get very cold very quickly. A power failure with a building isn't as serious, as there is a lag of heat loss from simple mass and the volume of air in the building.

 

[EPM]

Keeping a tree in a cold greenhouse and using a heat mat are very different things.

The BUILDINGS hold the relative heat in the atmosphere surrounding the ENTIRE plant. The overall environment in a greenhouse of heated shed is warmer and more humid.

A heat mat does no such thing. It provides heat only to SOME of the roots--this is a variable thing depending on how deep the freeze is. In deep cold, you're kidding yourself if you think a heat mat is keeping that deep cold out of the root mass. A heat mat under a tree outside offers very little, if any advantages to simple mulch covering.

I went through all of this when I got a live oak that is marginally hardy in my winters. Heat mats wouldn't cut it. I keep it in a cold greenhouse for the winter. Have for years.

Mats weren't made to keep mature plants "warm" in the winter, but are used for shorter term propagation of seeds and seedlings. They can also fail in many circumstances. Even a short power outage could allow things to get very cold very quickly. A power failure with a building isn't as serious, as there is a lag of heat loss from simple mass and the volume of air in the building.

I know I said I wouldn't comment but I feel like maybe there was a miscommunication and I want the OP to get what we're saying otherwise this is a waste. I agree with pretty much everything you just said. The OP was discussing keeping it in an unheated garage if I recall. I was suggesting he use a heat mat (with temperature control) under the tree, with the tree buried in mulch all inside a styrofoam cooler (or some other insulated box) with the lid off. All of this would be placed INSIDE the garage. I didn't suggest he put a heat mat under a tree outside. If his garage hits 10 degrees F in the worst part of winter then maybe his plants roots stay at 20 degrees with a heat mat setup I've suggested and the plant has at least some chance of surviving. But maybe his unheated garage doesn't get that cold. If he determines that's the case then he shouldn't get a heat mat. I don't think heat mats are a panacea but they are a tool that can make sense in certain circumstances.

In the end he can make his own decision with the information we've given him. If he has more questions for me I'm happy to answer them and I wish him the best of luck with the coming deep cold.

rockm, thanks for all of your responses, feedback and time, it's much appreciated.

 

[Timbo]

Simple thing is...if he can keep it at 0 Degrees F, what does he have to worry about?
The weather right now isn't even close to worry about anyways, i put them on the ground out of the wind with my other trees and not much else you can do. I'm sure he gets plenty of snow cover to insulate.
My unheated garage stays way above the temps we get outside, if the soil stays moist i don't see how it would die.

 

[M. Frary]

All of this discussion goes back to using trees friendly to your zone.
If you don't have trees that are zoned for your area then you are putting yourself through needless worry and expenditures on extravagant ways to keep the tree alive.
It isnt going to thrive, just survive with the very good chance of going belly up if you lose power. Or forget to water it or overwater it or realize that you didn't have good airflow around the tree maybe promoting fungus or root rot.

 

[Dav4]

All of this discussion goes back to using trees friendly to your zone.
If you don't have trees that are zoned for your area then you are putting yourself through needless worry and expenditures on extravagant ways to keep the tree alive.
It isnt going to thrive, just survive with the very good chance of going belly up if you lose power. Or forget to water it or overwater it or realize that you didn't have good airflow around the tree maybe promoting fungus or root rot.

"Zone envy"

 

[M. Frary]

"Zone envy"

I used to have it but have since learned.

 

[Timbo]

"Zone envy"

Yes...most of the decent unique deciduous cutlivar's/varieties are rated near zone 5.
I'm feeding my JM hunger with Korean maple, Amur maple, Shantung maple. If they have lace leaf Korean maple I would be all over that!
We have Larches, Birches, Spruces and Pines, Coffeetree , I like my Ashes also. Dawn Redwood is suppose to work in zone 4 and i haven't had any issues yet.
There are a few varieties that are even more hardy.
I NEED to get a locust tree too!

 

[Timbo]

I used to have it but have since learned.

I haven't learned yet.

 

[Timbo]

Oh i forgot about Box Elder maple...planted some this year, A diff twist maple.

 

[M. Frary]

I NEED to get a locust tree too!

Don't. Just because it's a tree and cold hardy doesn't make it a good candidate for bonsai.
Same goes for a lot of other trees.
Like box elder,white ash,red maple,eastern white pine and others you find around here.

 

[Timbo]

You just listed 90% of the trees around here.

 

[M. Frary]

You just listed 90% of the trees around here.

I probably trimmed the trees along the powerlines on the property you live. I pretty much know where to find what tree where in Michigan.
I've been all over Michigan doing this work.

 

[drew33998]

I probably trimmed the trees along the powerlines on the property you live. I pretty much know where to find what tree where in Michigan.
I've been all over Michigan doing this work.

-red maple