derek7745's first maple - advice is welcome!

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Trees survive temperatures below 0C/32F by increasing the level of sugars in their tissues - sugar is antifreeze.

Water expands when it freezes. This is why ice floats and is found atop liquid ponds, lakes (and at the north pole in winter, for that matter). So your pot may get broken by the expansion, but your tree's roots don't get crushed by water freezing in the substrate

Thank you 0soyoung! Does the tree produce enough antifreeze so that the water in the roots doesn't freeze and expand? The pot I can replace, the roots are more important to me
 

M. Frary

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but we don't get months of freezing temps
That's why in my first post I alluded to it not getting as cold there as here.
I live in a place in Michigan that's brutal.
 

0soyoung

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Does the tree produce enough antifreeze so that the water in the roots doesn't freeze and expand? The pot I can replace, the roots are more important to me
Yes, but to what degree varies by species. Most varieties of acer palmatum can sugar up only enough that the roots do not freeze until some temperature below -15F/-5C. Douglas fir (pseudotsuga), on the other hand can easily do this down to at least -22F/-30C. Tropical species, such as banana, don't have this capability and die the instant the temperature drops below freezing.

The cycle of deepening overnight freezes and daytime thaws that usually occurs in fall is what makes this happen (as well as the enzyme amylase). Missing this, temperate species will be damaged by a sudden exposure to a 'hard freeze'.
 
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Yes, but to what degree varies by species. Most varieties of acer palmatum can sugar up only enough that the roots do not freeze until some temperature below -15F/-5C. Douglas fir (pseudotsuga), on the other hand can easily do this down to at least -22F/-30C. Tropical species, such as banana, don't have this capability and die the instant the temperature drops below freezing.

The cycle of deepening overnight freezes and daytime thaws that usually occurs in fall is what makes this happen (as well as the enzyme amylase). Missing this, temperate species will be damaged by a sudden exposure to a 'hard freeze'.

Thank you!!!
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ajm55555

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Trees survive temperatures below 0C/32F by increasing the level of sugars in their tissues - sugar is antifreeze.
Yes but there is a limit to everything. Even salt on the road is used as antifeeeze but at some point the water will freeze anyway.
Here we're talking about -10/-15C (15/5F). I wouldn't want to have wet soil and then the temperature going that low.
 

M. Frary

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Yes but there is a limit to everything. Even salt on the road is used as antifeeeze but at some point the water will freeze anyway.
Here we're talking about -10/-15C (15/5F). I wouldn't want to have wet soil and then the temperature going that low.
Happens here every winter.
All of my pots,buckets and colanders freeze solid.
 

M. Frary

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Wet soil freezing solid and you never had dead roots? Well, I'm happy to hear that Japanese maples are so strong :)
I don't have J.M.
It's too cold for them here but they can still be frozen.
My trees are all zone 4 trees or less.
If you live in zone 5 Japanese maples can be kept out all winter with protection.
 

Paulpash

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In the UK JM's experience several degrees of frost every year and survive happily. Without a cold, dormant period JM's actually suffer and slowly decline. Trident Maple roots are different, as are most fleshy rooted trees and these can be damaged by frost if it gets really cold (like below -5C for several days). I'd protect TM every year here but only JM in exceptionally cold periods.
 

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Frozen soil doesn't injure roots, and water in the soil actually will protect the roots from cold damage as it freezes, which releases heat. Once it's frozen, keeping the soil frozen is actually the goal. In MA, my bonsai, including palmatums and tridents, would reliably be sitting in frozen soil by late December and they would stay that way until March or April... never, ever had an issue with this and all the trees would break dormancy each spring and grow vigorously. The key is protecting the root zone from extremes, both cold and warm, during dormancy. More trees are injured by breaking dormancy too early... which is when they lose all their cold hardiness... and are then exposed to more damaging winter cold. Mulching the pots will significantly slow the rise and fall of the temperature inside the root ball. Many of my trees were kept on the concrete floor of my unattached garage, mulched with wood chips, and would see temps fall into the single digits inside there at times... the temps underneath the frozen soil and mulch always stayed around 32 F.
 

ConorDash

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Looks like a discussion on dormancy and winter, is going well!!

To the tree at hand, that's a really lovely base flare, and the trunk has certainly got character! A load of fat scars on it.

Do you really need the trunk to thicken more? Seems good to me. The problem with that big branch lower down is that I don't think it's attractive for bonsai. It's very horizontal and low.
Usually on maple you see branching higher up the trunks and/or more diagonal going up to the sky. The lower the branch, the more they point up to reach the sun.
Of course I'm sure there are exceptions but I was merely going from looking at other maple bonsai.
You chose a hell of a maple to look up to, Mach's Kashima, but there's no problem there :). His lower branches or branch are pointing more up before then levelling out horizontally, and his upper branchs are horizontal or diagonal.
I could be wrong but I just think the lower branch is too straight and level.

Also remember foliage causes branch and trunk thickening, not just having a branch or letting it grow out.
 
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Looks like a discussion on dormancy and winter, is going well!!

To the tree at hand, that's a really lovely base flare, and the trunk has certainly got character! A load of fat scars on it.

Do you really need the trunk to thicken more? Seems good to me. The problem with that big branch lower down is that I don't think it's attractive for bonsai. It's very horizontal and low.
Usually on maple you see branching higher up the trunks and/or more diagonal going up to the sky. The lower the branch, the more they point up to reach the sun.
Of course I'm sure there are exceptions but I was merely going from looking at other maple bonsai.
You chose a hell of a maple to look up to, Mach's Kashima, but there's no problem there :). His lower branches or branch are pointing more up before then levelling out horizontally, and his upper branchs are horizontal or diagonal.
I could be wrong but I just think the lower branch is too straight and level.

Also remember foliage causes branch and trunk thickening, not just having a branch or letting it grow out.

Thank you for this very helpful advice!!

Do you think the scars will eventually heal ? And if so, will the trunk simply need to 'age' in a bonsai pot to heal these scars or will i need to deliberately thicken the trunk to heal them? (This would be good to know if I do end up removing the lowest branch).

Thank you!
D
 

ConorDash

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Thank you for this very helpful advice!!

Do you think the scars will eventually heal ? And if so, will the trunk simply need to 'age' in a bonsai pot to heal these scars or will i need to deliberately thicken the trunk to heal them? (This would be good to know if I do end up removing the lowest branch).

Thank you!
D

Yeah of course, they will eventually heal. Just keep the tree healthy and don't worry about the scars. Most of them will be hidden by canopy in the end any way and a healthy and happy tree is always the best fix for what ails it.
When growing out material and working on branches, it's always good to have it in a nice big pot so it has room to spread roots, grow branches, grow foliage, provide the tree with more energy to grow more roots!
No, no need to do anything deliberately to heal them. It gives the tree character any way, it's not bad. Got nice movement in the trunk.

If you like the lower branch, keep it. All on you, just take people's advice seriously but not as commands. The lower branch is just a bit too thick in my opinion, but it's my preference.

I'll go ahead and call upon the man himself...
@MACH5 if you have a minute, would you mind giving your opinion on this tree?
 
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When growing out material and working on branches, it's always good to have it in a nice big pot so it has room to spread roots, grow branches, grow foliage, provide the tree with more energy to grow more roots!

Thank you for all your help!

Yes, in the late winter/early spring I plan to repot this maple into a larger pot, with a 30cm x 30cm plank or wood or ceramic tile tied closely and tightly right under the trunk to the roots much more horizontal looking near the base of the trunk.

Would this (early spring) also be the right time to graft branches and chop the top off of the trunk (at the same time as I am also cutting off chunks of the roots during the repotting i just mentioned).

Thank you!
D
 

ConorDash

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Thank you for all your help!

Yes, in the late winter/early spring I plan to repot this maple into a larger pot, with a 30cm x 30cm plank or wood or ceramic tile tied closely and tightly right under the trunk to the roots much more horizontal looking near the base of the trunk.

Would this (early spring) also be the right time to graft branches and chop the top off of the trunk (at the same time as I am also cutting off chunks of the roots during the repotting i just mentioned).

Thank you!
D

Personally, I wouldn't.
I'm a firm believer in the "no more than 1 major insult per year" rule. There are exceptions of course..
If you chop the head off it, it'll lose a lot of foliage that it's using to produce roots (among other things). Tie that together with root reduction? It seems to me that it would weaken the tree greatly. Not to say it'll die, but it'll take at least a year to bounce back.
Also consider the trees current health and vigor before doing such work. Is it established in the pot, does it have any weakening issues at the moment. Also with maples I've always been told to do major work in autumn, as they bleed from pruning. So there's that too.

I'm personally going to do a major or minor trunk chop this autumn on my maple. I've waited for it to get healthy and although I'm not 100% that it is healthy (don't ask), this autumn is as good a time as any.

You could repot and wait a year, let the tree establish, produce more roots, get vigorous and strong. I know it's a terrible though to have to wait a year, but from what I've been advised, patience is the best practice in nearly every situation.
Also this kinda chop or prune will probably be the most major pruning you'll ever do to the tree so it makes sense that it's given the bigger period of time to be ready for it.

That's just my take on things. Others may advise differently.
 
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Personally, I wouldn't.
I'm a firm believer in the "no more than 1 major insult per year" rule. There are exceptions of course..
If you chop the head off it, it'll lose a lot of foliage that it's using to produce roots (among other things). Tie that together with root reduction? It seems to me that it would weaken the tree greatly. Not to say it'll die, but it'll take at least a year to bounce back.
Also consider the trees current health and vigor before doing such work. Is it established in the pot, does it have any weakening issues at the moment. Also with maples I've always been told to do major work in autumn, as they bleed from pruning. So there's that too.

I'm personally going to do a major or minor trunk chop this autumn on my maple. I've waited for it to get healthy and although I'm not 100% that it is healthy (don't ask), this autumn is as good a time as any.

You could repot and wait a year, let the tree establish, produce more roots, get vigorous and strong. I know it's a terrible though to have to wait a year, but from what I've been advised, patience is the best practice in nearly every situation.
Also this kinda chop or prune will probably be the most major pruning you'll ever do to the tree so it makes sense that it's given the bigger period of time to be ready for it.

That's just my take on things. Others may advise differently.

Thank you, for such clarity in your advice once again! I really appreciate your help!

repotting can only be done in the a late winter/early spring, correct?

The tree has been in this pot for 3 years and is strong (which may mean it's a good time to chop), but I think I am going to have to re-pot and let the tree establish itself in a new pot before chopping it. Or chop it this autumn 2017, let the tree establish itself, and then re-pot in spring 2019. Chopping this autumn will certainly make storing it for the winter much easier :)

Thank you!
D
 

ConorDash

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Thank you, for such clarity in your advice once again! I really appreciate your help!

repotting can only be done in the a late winter/early spring, correct?

The tree has been in this pot for 3 years and is strong (which may mean it's a good time to chop), but I think I am going to have to re-pot and let the tree establish itself in a new pot before chopping it. Or chop it this autumn 2017, let the tree establish itself, and then re-pot in spring 2019. Chopping this autumn will certainly make storing it for the winter much easier :)

Thank you!
D

It varies from species to specie s but with maples, yeah. You want the stage between bud extension and bud opening.
http://bonsai4me.com/Basics/BasicsWhen to Repot your Bonsai.htm

Bonsai4me is an awesome site with pages of full on info. If you can bear it and are serious, just read to your hearts content. I have to read it all again. I did a while ago but doesn't just sink in after reading once..
3 years is a long time, it must have quite a good bit of energy Stored up and very comfortable there. Maybe gentler lift it out of the pot? See what kinda roots you are dealing with, if they are circling the pot or not.. take pics and show us.
I'm not sure it'd be good to leave it 4 years but looking at roots will tell us more. Also poke around in the soil, how hard is it, how long does water take to sink down in to it when watering well.. little tests to see what the condition of the soil is like.
 
D

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It varies from species to specie s but with maples, yeah. You want the stage between bud extension and bud opening.
http://bonsai4me.com/Basics/BasicsWhen to Repot your Bonsai.htm

Bonsai4me is an awesome site with pages of full on info. If you can bear it and are serious, just read to your hearts content. I have to read it all again. I did a while ago but doesn't just sink in after reading once..
3 years is a long time, it must have quite a good bit of energy Stored up and very comfortable there. Maybe gentler lift it out of the pot? See what kinda roots you are dealing with, if they are circling the pot or not.. take pics and show us.
I'm not sure it'd be good to leave it 4 years but looking at roots will tell us more. Also poke around in the soil, how hard is it, how long does water take to sink down in to it when watering well.. little tests to see what the condition of the soil is like.

Thank you! You're definitely right about the re-reading! There is so much to absorb!

Thanks again Conor!
D
 
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