Default Bonsai Size

[DrTolhur]

Is there a sort of default size people assume when talking about bonsai? It seems like what I would call larger bonsai, maybe 1'-2' tall, are what most people seem to have in mind when entering a conversation about bonsai. If that's not what's intended, you need to specify "mame" or "shohin" so people have the right expectation.

1) Is my perception correct in people typically assuming larger-than-shohin as the default bonsai size?
2) Since there are so many size categories, why does there seem to be a default? Shouldn't the size always be specified/inquired of up front?
3) If larger bonsai is the default, and if that's because it's most typical, why is that? Is it just because larger ones have more room for style and to look mature?

 

[DonovanC]

I think it just comes down to individual preference. I personally don’t think about large bonsai first. My mental bonsai archetype is one easily handled with one hand. Bonsai can be tiny or massive - in China and other places, I understand, there are commonly bonsai that are 2 meters or more.
I don’t think I’m alone in my small bonsai archetype though, I think that a lot of bonsai enthusiasts have a preference for shohin.

 

[TN_Jim]

nah

 

[DonovanC]

nah
View attachment 400349

Opinionated moth.

 

[Shibui]

Different people seem to have different preconceived ideas of what bonsai is or should look like.
The uninitiated and beginners probably generally think of bonsai as 'small'. I guess that's their experience from seeing mallsai for sale and most seem to be thinking in terms of 4-12 inches tall.
Those who get to know bonsai quickly discover how difficult the smaller sized trees are and how much more realistic the larger trees look and begin to work with mid sized trees.
Then they discover how good older, larger bonsai look on show and suddenly bigger is better. There is a big demand for really thick trunks and larger trees though few appear to be willing to pay the real cost of growing such trees.
Finally as our backs begin to age and skills improve many of us tend to drift back toward smaller sized bonsai and even to the real challenge of creating and maintaining real quality shohin sized trees.
All that is alluding to no one default size for bonsai. Individuals may have some sort of default but bonsai means many things to many people.

When looking at bonsai it is not so much the size I view, rather the quality and design - how attractive and interesting the tree is. It is only afterwards I start to wonder what size it really is so I don't know that size needs to be specified up front but it is a factor I am interested in so i always appreciate when growers include some form of scale in photos posted online.

Mid and large sized bonsai are definitely easier to grow. Easier to keep alive and in good health. Larger trees give us more freedom to include better detail - more ramification, better proportion between trunk, branch, leaf, flowers and fruit. They allow us to refine skills and develop practices.

There's space for all sizes and types and standards of bonsai. Get rid of 'default' and open your mind to all possibilities.

 

[Coppersdad]

Is there a sort of default size people assume when talking about bonsai? It seems like what I would call larger bonsai, maybe 1'-2' tall, are what most people seem to have in mind when entering a conversation about bonsai. If that's not what's intended, you need to specify "mame" or "shohin" so people have the right expectation.

1) Is my perception correct in people typically assuming larger-than-shohin as the default bonsai size?
2) Since there are so many size categories, why does there seem to be a default? Shouldn't the size always be specified/inquired of up front?
3) If larger bonsai is the default, and if that's because it's most typical, why is that? Is it just because larger ones have more room for style and to look mature?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Personally between Cho and Dai. Two and 1/2 feet to 4 feet

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

@Coppersdad posted a good reference guide. Shohin-sized bonsai is kind of in its own category, will be displayed in groups, and typically away from larger trees in exhibitions. The major exhibitions right now favor the chu and dai sizes…24”-40” tall, all measured from the rim of the pot.

Many people will end up gravitating to a size category that works for them. Big trees have a larger margin of error in their care, but are heavy, require large pots and take a long time to prune and wire. Shohin trees can be whipped into shape quicker, are easy to move around but flaws are magnified. They have no margin of error in care. Pots are a major element of shohin display, which can be fun, challenging, and expensive.

 

[AcerAddict]

Many people will end up gravitating to a size category that works for them. Big trees have a larger margin of error in their care, but are heavy, require large pots and take a long time to prune and wire. Shohin trees can be whipped into shape quicker, are easy to move around but flaws are magnified. They have no margin of error in care. Pots are a major element of shohin display, which can be fun, challenging, and expensive.

I'm trying to find a happy medium between what looks good to me personally and having larger material because of the greater room for error. I used to have saltwater reef aquariums, and it's the same premise with them. Larger size tanks allow more room for error due to the greater dilution of toxins. A 3" long fish dying in a 125 gallon tank isn't any big deal, but that same 3" fish dying in a 20 gallon nano reef could potentially kill all other living things in the tank due to high levels of ammonia.

While I'd love a bunch of three to four foot tall bonsai, I don't want to have to deal with 1) buying large pots, 2) moving around those large pots, 3) buying soil for those pots, 4) wiring big trees, and 5) waiting a very long time for development. A finished height of about 18-30" is my comfort zone for most upright style bonsai. Assuming I use the loose guideline of the pot length being roughly one half the height of the tree, give-or-take, that means 9-15" long pots. I'm OK with that.

 

[Forsoothe!]

My philosophy is basically make a candidate a bonsai the size it is, as acquired. They grow slowly from the that point into maturity, but not much bigger. And all this is wood size, not canopy. That means almost all go from a standard nursery tree to half the overall size right away and would take 20 years to become as big as the original whole size, if ever. The whole idea is the wood being as large of a percentage of the tree as possible and only enough foliage as is necessary to maintain the artistic vision of a tree. Just like in nature where a tree gets to some point where the canopy becomes a mature size and is maintained while the trunk continues to increase in diameter, -doubling or tripling.

 

[DrTolhur]

I’m aware of all of the available sizes for bonsai and that different people have their own preferences for which they use. I’ve just had some experiences where people seem to give advice about timeline or trunk size, only to later learn that it was shohin in question, which changes the advice. So it seems strange for people to give information/advice that’s size-dependent without necessarily knowing the intended size. Shohin is my preferred size at this point, but it kind of seems less common around here.

 

[badatusernames]

I tend to like smaller bonsai but can't say that I've been strict about sizing. I just like bonsai. Some trees require being larger, some smaller.

I couldn't tell you what size at which this happens, but at some point they get too big and become just trees in pots for me. Really, really good trees in pots, but it's the small stuff that truly captures me. I'd say roughly around a foot. I would say the vast majority of what I have is somewhere in the shohin/kifu range.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I'm trying to find a happy medium between what looks good to me personally and having larger material because of the greater room for error. I used to have saltwater reef aquariums, and it's the same premise with them. Larger size tanks allow more room for error due to the greater dilution of toxins. A 3" long fish dying in a 125 gallon tank isn't any big deal, but that same 3" fish dying in a 20 gallon nano reef could potentially kill all other living things in the tank due to high levels of ammonia.

While I'd love a bunch of three to four foot tall bonsai, I don't want to have to deal with 1) buying large pots, 2) moving around those large pots, 3) buying soil for those pots, 4) wiring big trees, and 5) waiting a very long time for development. A finished height of about 18-30" is my comfort zone for most upright style bonsai. Assuming I use the loose guideline of the pot length being roughly one half the height of the tree, give-or-take, that means 9-15" long pots. I'm OK with that.

I hear ya. Nearly all of my trees are in the 12-30” range, and I have a dozen or so shohin to make up several seasonal 7-point displays.
Recently started reefing as a summer activity with my daughter…ugh, what a rabbit trail that is.

 

[BeepBeepBonsaiSheep]

I’d say before I started into bonsai, my default was anything under 12”. No reason for that thought. Just what would pop in my mind

 

[AcerAddict]

Recently started reefing as a summer activity with my daughter…ugh, what a rabbit trail that is.

Since I began bonsai in earnest about a year ago, I will say that there are many similarities between this hobby and reefkeeping. Marine aquariums require an absurd amount of patience, especially when first starting out. Almost nothing good happens fast in a reef tank. People who try to cut corners or rush things almost always end up regretting it. Most coral and fish grow slowly and can take several years to reach an appreciable size. Buying bigger fish or coral to save yourself that time waiting can get VERY expensive. Does any of this sound familiar at all?

 

[Pixar]

I didn't know we had a classification for Bonsai ( nice I've already got my first Tamarind tree - kifu sho )
Yes , I had a saltwater marine tank with a Clownfish and Blue Tang for 10 years until we accidently left the lid up and the Clownfish jumped out onto the carpet ( he was a big fish as well ) the Tang eventually died ( this was a very expensive hobby )

 

[Katie0317]

I hear ya. Nearly all of my trees are in the 12-30” range, and I have a dozen or so shohin to make up several seasonal 7-point displays.
Recently started reefing as a summer activity with my daughter…ugh, what a rabbit trail that is.

Had never looked at you website before. Your trees are stunning!

 

[penumbra]

Personally I like all the sizes and love seeing them displayed together as well.
As to reef tanks, I have been keeping marine tanks since 1972. It was real different in those days. We had to build our own filters and lights and sometimes the tanks as well. We even went to Florida and collected our critters (it was allowed back then). At one time I had at least one aquarium for every room. At the ripe old age of Old Fart, I only have two aquariums now, one salt, one fresh. That is 50 year now I have had at least one marine tank continuously. I've done a lot of labor intensive crazy s--t things that I'm glad I am over. Glad I did it, but glad I'm over it.
Now a full blown reef tank is a different animal altogether. I have done it but bonsai is actually easier. At least at the level I work with.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Now a full blown reef tank is a different animal altogether. I have done it but bonsai is actually easier. At least at the level I work with.

Yeah, that’s where I’m sitting now. I started by “converting” my 75-gal African cichlid tank, which I thought would be fairly easy. My first trip leaving the LFS cost me $2k and I didn’t have the first fish. Now the only remaining pieces from the original tank are the tank itself and the stand it’s on. Both of which I want to upgrade. Oh, and now I also have a 20-long QT going because Ich wiped out my first round of fish, so my 75-gal is sitting fallow right now. Bonsai is definitely easier, and requires less patience. I actually enjoyed working on a pine today because at least I knew what I was doing!

 

[AcerAddict]

Yeah, that’s where I’m sitting now. I started by “converting” my 75-gal African cichlid tank, which I thought would be fairly easy. My first trip leaving the LFS cost me $2k and I didn’t have the first fish. Now the only remaining pieces from the original tank are the tank itself and the stand it’s on. Both of which I want to upgrade. Oh, and now I also have a 20-long QT going because Ich wiped out my first round of fish, so my 75-gal is sitting fallow right now. Bonsai is definitely easier, and requires less patience. I actually enjoyed working on a pine today because at least I knew what I was doing!

Going from African cichlids to saltwater is a path MANY people take. I had a 40g breeder tank with Mbuna cichlids before going to salt. It's the pretty colored fish that starts the itch, then when you throw in all the coral, inverts, and hundreds more colorful fish options, there's no turning back. $2k for starting out a 75g is pretty standard, if not a little on the cheaper end for a reef. I bet you spent a huge chunk of that on live rock. Buying 1-2 lb per gallon adds up fast, and fresh water aquarists are shocked when they first see the price of live rock. "You want me to pay HOW MUCH for rocks?!?!" Ich teaches you VERY quickly the importance of a quarantine tank and liquid copper. I had a gorgeous dwarf Flame Angelfish die due to ich. Tough way to lose $50.

Yeah, I guess bonsai is easier after all, haha! After my wife and I moved into our new house early last year, I thought about starting up a new frameless cube reef for the corner of my office, around 60-90 gallons. That got put on hold indefinitely when I started with bonsai though. Now when I think about a reef tank, I imagine instead how many nice bonsai trees I could get for that money.