Cuttings wilting normal?

[MaxChavez]

Hi there,
I'm new to the cutting propagation world. Do people really get cuttings that stay perky all the way through the process? I seem to get a substantial wilt and sometimes complete rot on the leaves after about 2 weeks. I've also seen several YouTube videos, that start off great and end with, "well, they all died"

I'm all for documentation, but..
I guess my questions are:
Is some wilt common and let the stem keep going?
Trim off the wilted leaves as they fall or just leave them alone?

Thanks

 

[SeanS]

Did you leave all the leaves/foliage on the cuttings? Generally one only leaves 1 or 2 leaves on a cuttings, just enough to keep some energy production and water movement going. Leaving all the foliage (more than 2 leaves) means the cutting can’t keep all of those leaves alive and most will fall off. On larger leaves cuttings you should even trim the leaves down to a small little patch of leafy material

 

[Paradox]

Wilting is a sign they aren't getting enough water. You should always trim some leaves off cuttings.

Rotting probably means the substrateis too wet or if you have them covered, its too humid for them. That can also cause the wilting.

I'm not sure how well maple cuttings typically should survive so hopefully someone that has done them successfully responds.

 

[Shibui]

Definitely reduce the number of leaves and sometimes even cut any remaining leaves if they are large. Water in and water out need to balance if the cutting is to stay hydrated. Leaves transpire moisture so each leaf is losing water. No roots means little, if any, water coming in. The more leaves the quicker water is lost. High humidity reduces water transpiration from leaves. Hopefully we balance losses by reducing leaves and providing high humidity to the stage the cutting can stay alive until some callus and/or roots develop to get more water.
Summer softwood cuttings with very new tips will typically wilt at the tip. Many growers nip out the very soft tips as they take cuttings to prevent tips wilting.
Do you usually have a cover over the cuttings?
Where do you keep them? Cuttings need good light but not direct sun. Warmth but not to much - ideally soil is slightly warmer than leaves. Fresh air but not too windy cause that strips more water from leaves.

Rot on leaves can be several things. The cuttings really want to survive so if there's too much water loss it will kill off some leaves to reduce losses. Sometimes that works out, sometimes it happens too late. I would probably cut off a few lower leaves that have wilted or start turning brown or black.
Rotting leaves can also be caused by fungal infection caused by stagnant air and high humidity. Need some balance between humidity to maintain cuttings and air flow to keep fungus at bay. Plastic covers touching leaves promotes fungal infection.

Don't feel bad if you cannot strike Japanese maple cuttings. They are not easy. Some growers seem to be able to strike them relatively easy but I have tried and tried and finally gave up.

 

[Adamski77]

Don't want to hi-jack the thread but have related question... @Shibui (or maybe some other experts) ... what is the first visible sign above the ground that cuttings are getting roots? You can only gauge all is good when new leaves start coming out? Mine were planted at an angle (almost flat to be honest) as per videos/instructions I watched/read but right now they want to grow vertically so I can see them "standing up"... is this sign they are on the right track?

 

[TrevorLarsen]

Don't want to hi-jack the thread but have related question... @Shibui (or maybe some other experts) ... what is the first visible sign above the ground that cuttings are getting roots? You can only gauge all is good when new leaves start coming out? Mine were planted at an angle (almost flat to be honest) as per videos/instructions I watched/read but right now they want to grow vertically so I can see them "standing up"... is this sign they are on the right track?

Them standing up is a good sign that they are healthy, but once they start to grow new stuff then you know they have rooted. I would let them grow for a good while and root more just to be safe, but I’m no expert.

 

[ShadyStump]

I see the foliage on cuttings wilt away routinely, then the stems sit for some time looking dead, then come back to life sprouting new growth. Not all species do it like this, but the majority I've had success with do. Even willows will often lose their leaves before growing again. It's very common, not every case, but common.
Like others have said, you should reduce the leaves to one or two, and consider cutting what's left in half. This reduces the demand for water and nutrients, leaving more for callusing and rooting. Sometimes the cutting will actually hold on to the leaves if you do this, potentially increasing the likelihood of success.

Don't want to hi-jack the thread but have related question... @Shibui (or maybe some other experts) ... what is the first visible sign above the ground that cuttings are getting roots? You can only gauge all is good when new leaves start coming out? Mine were planted at an angle (almost flat to be honest) as per videos/instructions I watched/read but right now they want to grow vertically so I can see them "standing up"... is this sign they are on the right track?

If they're changing, they're either growing or rotting. If they're not rotting, then they must be growing.

 

[MaxChavez]

Thank you all for the replies!

They are covered in a plastic seedling tray/dome(3 adjustable vents,) with a +10degree heat mat underneath. I mist manually 2x a day and really only water once or twice a week when the soil surface dries. I have one set up indoors in an unheated room near a window and one outside to test any difference.

I did remove down to 2 leaves on most. Maybe I will try cutting some leaves in half on another go around.

 

[MaxChavez]

Definitely reduce the number of leaves and sometimes even cut any remaining leaves if they are large. Water in and water out need to balance if the cutting is to stay hydrated. Leaves transpire moisture so each leaf is losing water. No roots means little, if any, water coming in. The more leaves the quicker water is lost. High humidity reduces water transpiration from leaves. Hopefully we balance losses by reducing leaves and providing high humidity to the stage the cutting can stay alive until some callus and/or roots develop to get more water.
Summer softwood cuttings with very new tips will typically wilt at the tip. Many growers nip out the very soft tips as they take cuttings to prevent tips wilting.
Do you usually have a cover over the cuttings?
Where do you keep them? Cuttings need good light but not direct sun. Warmth but not to much - ideally soil is slightly warmer than leaves. Fresh air but not too windy cause that strips more water from leaves.

Rot on leaves can be several things. The cuttings really want to survive so if there's too much water loss it will kill off some leaves to reduce losses. Sometimes that works out, sometimes it happens too late. I would probably cut off a few lower leaves that have wilted or start turning brown or black.
Rotting leaves can also be caused by fungal infection caused by stagnant air and high humidity. Need some balance between humidity to maintain cuttings and air flow to keep fungus at bay. Plastic covers touching leaves promotes fungal infection.

Don't feel bad if you cannot strike Japanese maple cuttings. They are not easy. Some growers seem to be able to strike them relatively easy but I have tried and tried and finally gave up.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. It does seem like there's a lot of posts out there that say Japanese Maple cuttings are so simple and plenty that say Japanese Maple cuttings are impossible, ha!

 

[MaxChavez]

I see the foliage on cuttings wilt away routinely, then the stems sit for some time looking dead, then come back to life sprouting new growth. Not all species do it like this, but the majority I've had success with do. Even willows will often lose their leaves before growing again. It's very common, not every case, but common.
Like others have said, you should reduce the leaves to one or two, and consider cutting what's left in half. This reduces the demand for water and nutrients, leaving more for callusing and rooting. Sometimes the cutting will actually hold on to the leaves if you do this, potentially increasing the likelihood of success.


If they're changing, they're either growing or rotting. If they're not rotting, then they must be growing.

Thanks, makes me feel slightly better. I was loosely thinking poke around a bit after 8 weeks total, does that seem reasonable? (This is more for refining the process than actually needing results on these cuttings)
I've read wait until you see roots in the bottom holes, but...indefinitely?
Also, assuming there is Rooting and growth in 8 weeks- leave them clustered in a 4in pot all winter or delicately separate and pot individually?

 

[Shibui]

Don't want to hi-jack the thread but have related question... @Shibui (or maybe some other experts) ... what is the first visible sign above the ground that cuttings are getting roots? You can only gauge all is good when new leaves start coming out? Mine were planted at an angle (almost flat to be honest) as per videos/instructions I watched/read but right now they want to grow vertically so I can see them "standing up"... is this sign they are on the right track?

New growth on cuttings is a good sign but not always a reliable sign of roots. I've had plenty of dormant winter cuttings spring into life as weather warms up. Some even grow 2"-3" new shoots but that's just using energy stored in the stems. Eventually the shoots wilt and die unless roots form.
Apart from unpotting, the only reliable sign of success is when roots appear out the drain holes of the pots.
I grow a few species that don't grow long roots so never show at the bottom of the pots. Azalea is one common type that only grow short roots. When I see new shoots up top I gently upend the pot and slide the whole lot out to look for roots around the edges. When you get the hang it is possible to slide the soil ball out and back into the pot with very minimal disturbance.

Not unusual for plants at an angle to grow upward. Trunks at an angle is great for bonsai but not what a tree wants. Your needs do not always align with tree aims which is always to become the tallest tree in the forest so they will almost always grow straight up, no matter what angle we plant them.
New shoots growing upward is a very good sign.
What species? Check for roots at the bottom of pots. Maybe leave another couple of weeks to make sure the new roots are stronger before turning them out.

 

[TrevorLarsen]

You might find this helpful it’s a list someone on here put to together about what maples work with cuttings ect.

Japanese Maples that Root from Cuttings

For the benefit of all B nutters, self included, I would love to have here a list of Japanese Maples that others have success in rooting from either cuttings or air layers. As a logical starting point it was suggested that all of the maples listed at Evergreen Gardenworks are rooted. So I thank...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[Adamski77]

New growth on cuttings is a good sign but not always a reliable sign of roots. I've had plenty of dormant winter cuttings spring into life as weather warms up. Some even grow 2"-3" new shoots but that's just using energy stored in the stems. Eventually the shoots wilt and die unless roots form.
Apart from unpotting, the only reliable sign of success is when roots appear out the drain holes of the pots.
I grow a few species that don't grow long roots so never show at the bottom of the pots. Azalea is one common type that only grow short roots. When I see new shoots up top I gently upend the pot and slide the whole lot out to look for roots around the edges. When you get the hang it is possible to slide the soil ball out and back into the pot with very minimal disturbance.

Not unusual for plants at an angle to grow upward. Trunks at an angle is great for bonsai but not what a tree wants. Your needs do not always align with tree aims which is always to become the tallest tree in the forest so they will almost always grow straight up, no matter what angle we plant them.
New shoots growing upward is a very good sign.
What species? Check for roots at the bottom of pots. Maybe leave another couple of weeks to make sure the new roots are stronger before turning them out.

It’s your favorite one … Japanese maple… two different types that I’d like to use next year for root grafting… assuming they will do what I need. Plus some podocarpus in the middle.
Btw… there are no new shoots yet… it’s a cutting itself that is bending vertically… and I’m completely in no hurry… was asking question more in terms of what to watch for during my daily observations.

 

[Kievnstavick]

I give my cuttings a very gentle upwards pull to see if roots have formed. If I feel slight resistance and a larger area around the stem seems to move upward, I am somewhat confident roots have formed. You do have the chance of harming the roots if you aren't gentle enough, but I find it easy enough to test when I'm not looking to fill my cuttings pot with roots.