Creating "hills"

[badatusernames]

I'm curious what soil or technique you use to build up the soil in the pot to create more texture, lifting the tree out of the pot and above the rim. It seems that standard soil mixes would wash away if you simply tried to mound it up.

 

[leatherback]

Not sure what exactly you want to do, nor whether it is a great idea. But have a look at keto, a clay-like substance used to create all sorts of structures such as walls for slab-plantings or stick substrate around plantroots against rocks.

 

[badatusernames]

I'll see if I can find an example of it, but keto soil is the only thing I've seen reference to that does what I'm thinking of. I wasn't sure how trees actually grew in it, however, as my impression is that it's fairly dense.

Basically think of it like wanting to create a slope of soil and then planting a tree on top of the hill you made.

 

[leatherback]

For this planting I used substrate that was available during the course I took. It is very high on cocofibres. That keeps the substrate together, yet is open enough to drain reasonably well. The picture is 9 months after putting it together, and it standing in all weather (And normal watering) and the substrate stayed in place..

 

[badatusernames]

For this planting I used substrate that was available during the course I took. It is very high on cocofibres. That keeps the substrate together, yet is open enough to drain reasonably well. The picture is 9 months after putting it together, and it standing in all weather (And normal watering) and the substrate stayed in place..

View attachment 350537

Ah, that looks promising! I'll have to look into cocofibre.

 

[sorce]

IMO...it takes a lotta pot(wide enough) to give yourself enough space to make it look like a hill and not just poor potting technique.

You are essentially potting an entire landscape.

I don't think you can pot just a killed tree.

Sorce

 

[Michael P]

Also try a search on "muck". This is a mixture of clay, bonsai soil, and long-fiber sphagnum moss. The muck I make is heavy on the clay and sphagnum, but tree roots are happy to grow in it.

 

[HorseloverFat]

For some lake-slab plantings.. I have built the soil in “layers” even waay underneath anything visible... Try to think of it as construction of an entire slab of earth utilizing prime materials for your needs but miniaturized.. To attain these layers, varying materials were used... clay, bark (and mixtures of these) substrates in varying particle sizes Will compose my “soil layers”, rocks or small flat cement pieces to act as “lifters” or run “channels” through to semi-control waterflow... I’ve experimented with many other materials as well...

Think about it like lasagna... or layering colored sand in a mason jar.



This is just what I do.

 

[Sputnik 184]

I created the start of a windswept hawthorn on a hill a couple of years ago using sphagnum moss and Akadama. A mound of Akadama was made and the tree was placed and wired. Then loose sphagnum moss was laid over the mound, Akadama was sprinkled over and gently chopsticked into the moss. The edges were finished by tucking the moss at the edges under the mound gently with the chopstick. It was a technique learned from Ryan Neal on Mirai Live and it has proved very durable. As the roots grow they further hold the hill together along with a moss top dressing.

 

[badatusernames]

I created the start of a windswept hawthorn on a hill a couple of years ago using sphagnum moss and Akadama. A mound of Akadama was made and the tree was placed and wired. Then loose sphagnum moss was laid over the mound, Akadama was sprinkled over and gently chopsticked into the moss. The edges were finished by tucking the moss at the edges under the mound gently with the chopstick. It was a technique learned from Ryan Neal on Mirai Live and it has proved very durable. As the roots grow they further hold the hill together along with a moss top dressing.

that looks great!

Also try a search on "muck". This is a mixture of clay, bonsai soil, and long-fiber sphagnum moss. The muck I make is heavy on the clay and sphagnum, but tree roots are happy to grow in it.

I just stumbled across that yesterday somewhere, it sounds as though, against logic, the fine roots love the stuff... the idea of getting the roots into it seems like it couldn't be a picnic when I try to envision it, but it would certainly help address any potential erosion issues.

 

[Shibui]

I just stumbled across that yesterday somewhere, it sounds as though, against logic, the fine roots love the stuff... the idea of getting the roots into it seems like it couldn't be a picnic when I try to envision it, but it would certainly help address any potential erosion issues.

Muck/keto is used almost exclusively on rocks and slabs where the soil dries out way faster than pots. There is a big difference between keto on a rock slab and keto as the primary soil in a pot. i have some juniers planted on a rock. The roots are just covered with keto/muck. The roots have now grown down through the clay into the gravel below the rock.


Mounded soil can be covered with slabs of moss. Not only does it look really good like grass but it holds the soil together while the tree roots grow through to hold it all together.
Sphagnum or stones on the surface can hold soil together long enough for the tree's fine roots to grow to the surface and hold the soil in place.
If some soil washes away before it stabilizes just add some more as required.

A visiting Japanese master criticized some trees for being planted too high in the pot. He said nebari should not be above the rim of the pot. Not sure if that was a personal view or generally held in Japan. Obviously only applies to standard bonsai pots, not slabs or rocks plantings.

 

[badatusernames]

Muck/keto is used almost exclusively on rocks and slabs where the soil dries out way faster than pots. There is a big difference between keto on a rock slab and keto as the primary soil in a pot. i have some juniers planted on a rock. The roots are just covered with keto/muck. The roots have now grown down through the clay into the gravel below the rock.
View attachment 350615

Mounded soil can be covered with slabs of moss. Not only does it look really good like grass but it holds the soil together while the tree roots grow through to hold it all together.
Sphagnum or stones on the surface can hold soil together long enough for the tree's fine roots to grow to the surface and hold the soil in place.
If some soil washes away before it stabilizes just add some more as required.

A visiting Japanese master criticized some trees for being planted too high in the pot. He said nebari should not be above the rim of the pot. Not sure if that was a personal view or generally held in Japan. Obviously only applies to standard bonsai pots, not slabs or rocks plantings.

That's great information. I was convinced it was some different kind of substrate that was used, but I suppose it's a matter of delicacy and patience. That's an interesting tidbit about the Japanese master as well.

 

[Michael P]

I agree with Shibui that you should not use muck or keto as the sole soil in a pot. But you can use it over soil to create "retaining walls" to hold mounded soil in place.

 

[leatherback]

I wasn't sure how trees actually grew in it, however, as my impression is that it's fairly dense.

Nah, trees donot grow in it. It is used to keep structures together, like ratining walls.

 

[badatusernames]

the concept of “retaining walls” makes a ton more sense than how i was thinking muck was used... good to know!

 

[Michael P]

Nah, trees donot grow in it. It is used to keep structures together, like ratining walls.

Respectfully, I disagree. In less than a year, muck retaining walls on my slabs are full of trident maple and lacebark elm roots.

 

[Fonz]

Here I'm applying keto on a recently repotted tree. Good foundation for moss and a good way for preventing the soil to wash off of the roots.

 

[leatherback]

Respectfully, I disagree. In less than a year, muck retaining walls on my slabs are full of trident maple and lacebark elm roots.

Let me rewrite. You do not plant the tree in a pot full of keto. I think it was clear that is what I meant?

 

[Adair M]

Are you making hills for forest and/or to k plantings? Or are you mounding single trees in the pot?

Fir forests, planting on slabs, rock plantings, etc. it’s acceptable to have soil mounded. But as a general “rule” (or guideline, if you prefer) try to plant bonsai with level soil, with the soil about 1/4 below the rim.

This prevents erosion of the soil off the nebari. It allows water to be absorbed into the soil rather than running off the sides. It allows water to be absorbed into the core of the rootball rather than running down the inside edge of the pot.

There are a lot of horticultural reasons to have the soil level, not merely aesthetic.

 

[badatusernames]

Here I'm applying keto on a recently repotted tree. Good foundation for moss and a good way for preventing the soil to wash off of the roots.

View attachment 350651

View attachment 350652

that is lovely and exactly the sort of thing i’m talking about, for those who wanted more specifics

looks like rootball on the soil and then it’s covered with keto soil? is that correct? does it get worked into the roots or did you already work in some fast draining soil and essentially put the keto on top to hold it?