Could this Beautiful P. Rigida be Trained into a Bonsai pot at this age? Seeking info from anyone w/exp with Pitch Pine.

[NJtsr95]

So around 1.5mo ago, Purchased 3 tubelings and one “6” nursery pot, roughly 18-24” tall” P. rigida. My intention was to plant all four, but the one that arrived in the 6” nursery pot (in a box about 6”x6”x36”) I instantly was impressed with and fell in love with what plopped out of the tiny box, the trunk is much thicker than I was expecting. Which was Pencil/Sharpie thickness at best, this one is easily an inch or wider at the base. The branching and foliage is suprisingly dense, again for a tree of this size.

So my experience with trying to grow Pines indoors, is that they can succumb to transplant shock relatively easily and in general are difficult to keep healthy inside, and generally considered stupid because of how much space they take up for such a small amount of green foliage/surface area. With primary experience being P. Strobus, which began looking unhealthy a few weeks aftee buying (was intending to keep as live xmas tree and then plant) but ended up gifting to a friend w/yard who luckily saved most of it when he planted in full sun. I noticed a P. Virginiana seedling ripped out of the sand with a footslip print that looks like someone managed to trip and snag the surface root and yanked the whole taproot out. Was green, got it home. I think i planted it in too large a planter where it dried out too fast, or had too much root damage but it just shriveled up and died after a few weeks. So I’ve not had great luck keeping Pines alive inside, and they had actual pots and not even a small bonsai pot.

So this pine arrived in mid-late June, and I haven’t messed with the root ball or repotting right away as I’m not sure what I’m going to try to do with it. I am in love with the spiral twist of the trunk (i noticed this on some dead mature trees in wild and stripped of bark, the twisting spiral growth pattern that makes it a bit unique at least relative to our other native conifers.) However I’ve never seen a seedling/young tree like this in the wild with as wide of a base this has nor this dense of foliage , The last rigida trees i saw of this size were in sphagnum bogs and I noticed they had a form more uniform like white pine, but with more straight needles, the ones on this tree seem a bit twisted themselves. Which I know isn’t unusual for the species either just an observation.

It has been in its nursery pot just resting in a empty ceramic cactus pot since June. I’ve only removed the bamboo it was staked to, there were two branches pretty severely bent in shipping that appeared to be drying out so I sheared them off around the 3rd week of July. Around two weeks later and this is how the tree looks today! Some of the damage of the branch tip growing candles was caused by the needles being smashed against the box while shipping, some of them dried out so i pruned them off (not the candles just the damaged needles above the sheath). Now I confess I’ve upgraded my grow light system and am more cautious about watering issues since I’ve killed the white pine a few yrs ago.

But I was not expecting such vigorous growth of ANY pine like this indoors in a pot. My question is, can a tree of this age be massaged into perhaps a large rectangular training pot without damaging the root system. And I really love the natural spiral of the trunk, I was thinking of making it like a small scale (and thicker trunk) version of what a “textbook” large Pitch Pine looks like. If you’ve spent a lot of time in the pine barrens or observe the trees on the GSP in SNJ you’ll notice many tall ones that have a more conventional conical crown but with the distinctive P. Rigida bark plates and smoothly twisting trunk.

I also wonder if this tree was grafted because of the unusual bulge near the root flare, or perhaps its just the root flare itself? Attached you can see some pictures of the foliage (grow light cable management still in refinement) as well as the surprisingly vigorous shoots from where I pruned the damaged branch a few weeks ago (I know epicormic shoots are a hallmark of the species but I still find it quite interesting). I’m also wondering if I could air layer the entire crown off or maybe some of the more vigorous, highly branched upper branches to create a second tree and slow the vertical growth before it goes out of hand before I figure out what I can do with it.

However considering my experience with pines I am seeking advice from those with more experience with the species first so I don’t kill or damage it! Hard to find a lot of reliable info online as the JBP and other non-native conifers are far more popular for bonsai. But I’d like to experiment using local natives more. Thanks!

 

[NJtsr95]

Edit (couldnt revise original post 2nd time): Tree is approx 28” tall from base to tip, 20” crown spread, trunk diameter at base around 1.25” or 4-5cm. Some pics didn’t come out well. Here’s some in better lighting and a picture of the crown and an online image of a tall conical twisted trunk P. Rigida I was thinking of using as inspiration to shape this tree. Any advice welcome!

 

[BonsaiManic]

I'll start by telling you what every beginner is told: Trees belong outdoors.
It's a very common misnomer that bonsai are indoor trees, but that's simply not the case. Even with "perfect" indoor lighting, the seasons, temperatures, and conditions can't be duplicated. They must have the (often) drastic environmental changes that are experienced in nature in order to thrive. So my suggestion as a beginner who's seen this repeated time and again, is to gradually move it to a full sun location outside over a few weeks. It may survive inindoors, but it will never thrive. You do have a good looking tree though. You're probably going to want to let it just do its thing outside and let it get good and healthy in its new home before you do a whole lot with it. But there are much more experienced artists here who can help you better than I can. Best of luck!
The exception is for tropicals, and even then, it is preferable to keep them outside when weather is right, only bringing them inside when the temperature is below 50°F.

 

[NJtsr95]

I'll start by telling you what every beginner is told: Trees belong outdoors.
It's a very common misnomer that bonsai are indoor trees, but that's simply not the case. Even with "perfect" indoor lighting, the seasons, temperatures, and conditions can't be duplicated. They must have the (often) drastic environmental changes that are experienced in nature in order to thrive. So my suggestion as a beginner who's seen this repeated time and again, is to gradually move it to a full sun location outside over a few weeks. It may survive inindoors, but it will never thrive. You do have a good looking tree though. You're probably going to want to let it just do its thing outside and let it get good and healthy in its new home before you do a whole lot with it. But there are much more experienced artists here who can help you better than I can. Best of luck!
The exception is for tropicals, and even then, it is preferable to keep them outside when weather is right, only bringing them inside when the temperature is below 50°F.

Fair enough. I mean, I’ve always thought the nursery distinction between “indoor/outdoor plant” “indoor sun vs outdoor full sun” never made sense because no plant is an “indoor plant”, they’re all found outside somewhere, even the tropicals, so you certainly have a point that is obviously good advice.

But some factors to keep in mind in this scenario, I do not have forced air internal heating or cooling, it is baseboard, boiler radiator, as such I have more control over humidity year round. I keep air circulating throughout the small apartment year round, the wall AC units have blower vents to furrher recirc air which i also keep on year round and the plants on the rack there get exposed to varying breezes by changing the angle of air exhaust and speed of the blower on a weekly basis.

It’s also next to a window which I could do a thing called OPENING even in winter, which I often do anyway because I work on computers in the other room that get quite hot so i intake cold air from the living room and exhaust it out of the kitchen and pc room. This means the tree could be positioned to receive pretty much freezing cold air directly from outside which doesnt get significantly heated until its drafted into the pc room by convection and exhausted from a powerful window vent fan.

You know your advice here applies to literally everything? Trees and plants are supposed to IN THE GROUND, NOT A POT? What are you crazy or something? Shoving a tree in a tiny pot? CUTTING ROOTS TO FIT!? You should be locked up for abusing a living creature, man. Look outside how many trees growing outside do you see in pots? Zero? Haha checkmate! You can’t put plants in a pot when they’re supposed to be in the ground outside! They’ll never THRIVE in a pot, because no plants have evolved to do such a thing! But they may SURVIVE. So my advice is then by your logic your entire “art” is just cruel and unusual punishment and unnatural and should be banned!

If it needs overwintering or dormancy periods, which I know a lot of temperate native species do, I can put it outside against the E facing wall and partially cover it with something or to insulate the pot as the root systems are better protected in the ground obviously.

Seriously though: Can I get input from someone who knows how to talk like a real person and not talking down to me condescendingly like a bitter old boomer on the downswing hard in life, and likes to flex that all they got left it property ownership, because almost nobody under 30 can afford to have a YARD OF OUR OWN. Van down by the river even goes for like a hundred grand these days. Must be nice?

 

[rockm]

Fair enough. I mean, I’ve always thought the nursery distinction between “indoor/outdoor plant” “indoor sun vs outdoor full sun” never made sense because no plant is an “indoor plant”, they’re all found outside somewhere, even the tropicals, so you certainly have a point that is obviously good advice.

But some factors to keep in mind in this scenario, I do not have forced air internal heating or cooling, it is baseboard, boiler radiator, as such I have more control over humidity year round. I keep air circulating throughout the small apartment year round, the wall AC units have blower vents to furrher recirc air which i also keep on year round and the plants on the rack there get exposed to varying breezes by changing the angle of air exhaust and speed of the blower on a weekly basis.

It’s also next to a window which I could do a thing called OPENING even in winter, which I often do anyway because I work on computers in the other room that get quite hot so i intake cold air from the living room and exhaust it out of the kitchen and pc room. This means the tree could be positioned to receive pretty much freezing cold air directly from outside which doesnt get significantly heated until its drafted into the pc room by convection and exhausted from a powerful window vent fan.

You know your advice here applies to literally everything? Trees and plants are supposed to IN THE GROUND, NOT A POT? What are you crazy or something? Shoving a tree in a tiny pot? CUTTING ROOTS TO FIT!? You should be locked up for abusing a living creature, man. Look outside how many trees growing outside do you see in pots? Zero? Haha checkmate! You can’t put plants in a pot when they’re supposed to be in the ground outside! They’ll never THRIVE in a pot, because no plants have evolved to do such a thing! But they may SURVIVE. So my advice is then by your logic your entire “art” is just cruel and unusual punishment and unnatural and should be banned!

If it needs overwintering or dormancy periods, which I know a lot of temperate native species do, I can put it outside against the E facing wall and partially cover it with something or to insulate the pot as the root systems are better protected in the ground obviously.

Seriously though: Can I get input from someone who knows how to talk like a real person and not talking down to me condescendingly like a bitter old boomer on the downswing hard in life, and likes to flex that all they got left it property ownership, because almost nobody under 30 can afford to have a YARD OF OUR OWN. Van down by the river even goes for like a hundred grand these days. Must be nice?

What you're doing will most likely result in the death of your conifers, unless you have high output lighting for greenhouses or grow houses, large humidifers and a dedicated room in your home to devote to plants. Pines and conifers are extreme high light plants. They simply don't do very well inside--low light being the biggest obstacle. You need only count the number of posts here about dead or dying junipers--there are hundreds.

You mistake growing in a pot as being "unnatural." It's not all that unnatural. Trees with limited root run happens all the time in nature, from swamps, to mountaintops, to even forests. Plants grow in many kinds of extreme environments that limit root growth, including rock surfaces, shallow soils, etc. Every experience collector of conifer bonsai material knows the best locations to easily collect pines is from rock faces on mountains, where roots have been "containerized" in natural depressions in the rock. Some even find trees with intact root masses that ca be lifted out with no digging...Growing them in a pot and limiting root growth takes advantage of that capability. It's not unnatural.

As for opening a window, putting a tree next to it, you might do a bit of research before making such a leap. Opening a window in the winter/summer/spring/autumn does not make it the same season inside, unless of course you allow the air temp inside to match the air temp outside, which can be an issue if you live anywhere it gets below freezing, the temp outside is 95 F, or if you live with someone else.

good luck...

 

[Paradox]

OK there is a lot to unpack in your two posts so Ill try to get to all of it but if I miss something, ask

As to your original question, yes this tree can be put into a bonsai pot at its size however you need to ask yourself:
Do you like the size of the trunk as is? If yes you can move toward getting it into a training pot in the spring.
If you want a bigger trunk, you are going to have to try and grow it out more but keep in mind, that could take years

If you like the size of the trunk as is, proper repotting time for NJ is going to be late winter/early spring, probably March or April as the buds start to swell.
The good news is you have time to read up on how to do that and find a proper training pot

You will probably need to transition it through at least one training pot, which is a pot shaped like a bonsai pot but typically deeper and larger than what the tree would eventually go into as a "finished pot". Dont rush this transition (ie dont go from the nursery can directly into a bonsai pot). Doing so will probably kill it. Trees work on the order of years and seasons, not months like us humans. So you would repot into a training pot next spring then not repot again for at least 2 maybe 3 years. You generally dont want to reduce the root mass more than 50% per repot so how many repots/transition to smaller pots it will take depends on how large the root mass is and what the final pot should be.


As the other person stated, the tree needs to be outside. This is pretty non-negotiable.
You just can not simulate outdoor sun, air flow and other things inside a house. It doesn't matter what your heating/ air system is, it will not survive long term in the house.

Yes you can put it outside against the side of the house and mulch the pot in against the foundation. I wouldn't cover the branches/needles in mulch. If we actually get snow, that is perfect as snow is a great insulator.

If you can the North side would actually be best because it will get less potential exposure to sun on the north side. I know this seems counter intuitive but the reason is a warm spell in late winter or early spring could cause the tree to wake up too early and start to grow. That followed by a freak late winter frost or freeze could kill the tree.

Something you can do this fall in late September or October is get some bonsai wire and wire some curves into the branches so you can start to get the tree started toward looking more like a bonsai and less like a young big tree. Get copper wire, it has better holding power for springy pine branches than aluminum wire does.
Wiring takes patience and lots of practice to get the hang of. You just need to get in there and do it and practice. There are some videos and probably some guides here and online if you want to do a search for them. Key pointers are to use the proper size wire for the job, wire from the bottom up and inner parts of the tree/branches out to the ends and never cross wires over each other.

If you have more questions, ask

 

[Colorado]

Fair enough. I mean, I’ve always thought the nursery distinction between “indoor/outdoor plant” “indoor sun vs outdoor full sun” never made sense because no plant is an “indoor plant”, they’re all found outside somewhere, even the tropicals, so you certainly have a point that is obviously good advice.

But some factors to keep in mind in this scenario, I do not have forced air internal heating or cooling, it is baseboard, boiler radiator, as such I have more control over humidity year round. I keep air circulating throughout the small apartment year round, the wall AC units have blower vents to furrher recirc air which i also keep on year round and the plants on the rack there get exposed to varying breezes by changing the angle of air exhaust and speed of the blower on a weekly basis.

It’s also next to a window which I could do a thing called OPENING even in winter, which I often do anyway because I work on computers in the other room that get quite hot so i intake cold air from the living room and exhaust it out of the kitchen and pc room. This means the tree could be positioned to receive pretty much freezing cold air directly from outside which doesnt get significantly heated until its drafted into the pc room by convection and exhausted from a powerful window vent fan.

You know your advice here applies to literally everything? Trees and plants are supposed to IN THE GROUND, NOT A POT? What are you crazy or something? Shoving a tree in a tiny pot? CUTTING ROOTS TO FIT!? You should be locked up for abusing a living creature, man. Look outside how many trees growing outside do you see in pots? Zero? Haha checkmate! You can’t put plants in a pot when they’re supposed to be in the ground outside! They’ll never THRIVE in a pot, because no plants have evolved to do such a thing! But they may SURVIVE. So my advice is then by your logic your entire “art” is just cruel and unusual punishment and unnatural and should be banned!

If it needs overwintering or dormancy periods, which I know a lot of temperate native species do, I can put it outside against the E facing wall and partially cover it with something or to insulate the pot as the root systems are better protected in the ground obviously.

Seriously though: Can I get input from someone who knows how to talk like a real person and not talking down to me condescendingly like a bitter old boomer on the downswing hard in life, and likes to flex that all they got left it property ownership, because almost nobody under 30 can afford to have a YARD OF OUR OWN. Van down by the river even goes for like a hundred grand these days. Must be nice?

Omg lol.

I don’t think the response was intended to be condescending or bitter. It’s just a fact of life that pitch pine are not a very good candidate for indoor bonsai. No need to take it personally lol!

I think there are some species that could be grown indoors without a back yard. I don’t think pitch pine is one of them.

There’s plenty of fun to be had with indoor bonsai! Tiger bark ficus does great indoors. Just my 2 cents….

 

[BonsaiManic]

I'm starting to understand some of these woke hipsters. I also see why some people will never learn, even when people are giving them genuine and good advice. Don't ask questions if you've already made up your mind for the answer.
One thing confuses me, though. Why would you rage against someone giving you well-intentioned answers? If you continue with this attitude towards others, you'll find they will stop being helpful as well.
Good luck with your tree, I'm out.