Conifer Soil Question

[Hawke84]

Hi all,
Soooo not wanting to start a long discussion on soil, I have a soil question....
I'm generally happy with my mix for deciduous trees, i use the Bonsaiempire mix of 50% Akadama, 25% Lava rock and 25% Pumice. No organic.

My question was around Conifers, I get cold winters which are usually freezing temperatures (I dont normally get snow but a hard ground frost)
Bonsaiempire soil recommendation for conifers is 33% Akadama, 33% Lava and 33% Pumice

Now I know there is no real substitute for Akadama but I know that it is not frost tolerant. on Harry Harrington's website he just says

"An inorganic-clay based soil is essential for Junipers as they are prone to very poor-health in old, compacted, organic soils. Because Junipers cannot be bare-rooted or have more than one third of the soil mass changed in one year, it is essential that a soil with good particle structure is used. Avoid Akadama and similar low-fired clays that break down after one to two years. "

So what would people suggest for junipers and pines? Use a organic component like pine bark? just use lava and pumice in a 50:50 mix? substitute with moler clay?

im curious what other people have found works. currently im leaning towards using pine bark so that the mycorrhizal fungi have something to eat but the other part of me is thinking put a bit of akadama in there as its not a massive part of the mix.

thanks!

 

[River's Edge]

Hi all,
Soooo not wanting to start a long discussion on soil, I have a soil question....
I'm generally happy with my mix for deciduous trees, i use the Bonsaiempire mix of 50% Akadama, 25% Lava rock and 25% Pumice. No organic.

My question was around Conifers, I get cold winters which are usually freezing temperatures (I dont normally get snow but a hard ground frost)
Bonsaiempire soil recommendation for conifers is 33% Akadama, 33% Lava and 33% Pumice

Now I know there is no real substitute for Akadama but I know that it is not frost tolerant. on Harry Harrington's website he just says

"An inorganic-clay based soil is essential for Junipers as they are prone to very poor-health in old, compacted, organic soils. Because Junipers cannot be bare-rooted or have more than one third of the soil mass changed in one year, it is essential that a soil with good particle structure is used. Avoid Akadama and similar low-fired clays that break down after one to two years. "

So what would people suggest for junipers and pines? Use a organic component like pine bark? just use lava and pumice in a 50:50 mix? substitute with moler clay?

im curious what other people have found works. currently im leaning towards using pine bark so that the mycorrhizal fungi have something to eat but the other part of me is thinking put a bit of akadama in there as its not a massive part of the mix.

thanks!

Sooo you use it for deciduous and are happy with it in your climate. But you question a lower % content with conifers in the same climate which you state is equivalent to USDA zone 9.
What is the logic in this?

 

[Hawke84]

Sooo you use it for deciduous and are happy with it in your climate. But you question a lower % content with conifers in the same climate which you state is equivalent to USDA zone 9.
What is the logic in this?

I can bare root deciduous trees every 2 years if need be, I know I can't do that with conifers or pines.

 

[River's Edge]

I can bare root deciduous trees every 2 years if need be, I know I can't do that with conifers or pines.

I live in zone 8b , colder than your zone, no difficulty using Akadama in my conifer mixes for growing, collecting, refining. I use a medium size, decent quality Akadama. It is not necessary to repot more frequently because of the mix. Repotting is based on the health and stage of the tree. I can see it being an issue for lower quality soft akadama.
My nursery has JBP, JRP, Mountain Hemlock, Sub Alpine Fir, Shore Pine, Scotch Pine, Shimpaku, Tsukomo cypress, Western Hemlock, a fair variety of conifers.
I rarely go longer than four or five years between repots for reason of continued health, vigor and root congestion. Using akadama has not created any problems for me, structure is maintained and the health of the plants is excellent.
Further to your reasoning, bare root is not usually required for repotting with established trees, primarily when developing deciduous or removing compacted field or nursery soil.

 

[coh]

I started using akadama about 4-5 years ago and live in a climate with both prolonged deep freezes and frequent freeze-thaw cycles.
Some of my trees have now been repotted after spending those 4-5 years in an akadama based mix and I have to say, I've seen no evidence
of accelerated breakdown of the akadama component. So I second Frank's comment/observation about akadama - use a decent quality and
you should have no problems.

That said - if suddenly I could no longer get good quality akadama I would not hesitate to substitute properly-sized bark (which I've used in
the past successfully). Another option might be DE - Ryan Neil among others is testing it as an akadama-substitute and many here use it and
claim it works well. I haven't tried it.

 

[just.wing.it]

My immediate thought was sort of a partial an echo of the others....
Maybe its got more to do with the type of akadama than anything.

 

[Hawke84]

great thank you guys, this helps a lot. I have some good quality akadama so i'll go a head with this when the time is right to repot. I have not seen any evidence of it on deciduous trees but i've only been going a couple of years.
@coh what is DE?

 

[coh]

great thank you guys, this helps a lot. I have some good quality akadama so i'll go a head with this when the time is right to repot. I have not seen any evidence of it on deciduous trees but i've only been going a couple of years.
@coh what is DE?

diatomaceous earth (NAPA 8822 I think is one that people use though particle size is a bit on the small side)

probably quite a few threads about it here

 

[just.wing.it]

Diatomaceous Earth.


I find it weird that a subtle change like that can make the difference in anything.

 

[Hawke84]

diatomaceous earth (NAPA 8822 I think is one that people use though particle size is a bit on the small side)

probably quite a few threads about it here

thanks. I've used that, didnt like it. small particles and felt like it was always thirsty i.e. i was worried it would start trying to strip moisture away from the roots and get a reverse osmosis effect...

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

thanks. I've used that, didnt like it. small particles and felt like it was always thirsty i.e. i was worried it would start trying to strip moisture away from the roots and get a reverse osmosis effect...

Hi Hawke,
Only my zone is relevant here so as from NZ my weather conditions are different.
Akadama is not available here so I have tried to find some alternatives. Scoria and DE are expensive so I have gone with Zeolite, Pumice, and pine bark all seived. My belief that DE, used by most European bonsai folk, is an excellent product similar to pumice as it holds moisture and fertiliser to a minimal degree giving the trees something to attach to and feed off. Once wet, it can’t absorb any more, so no reverse osmosis (someone correct me if I am wrong ?). Zeolite has similar properties to DE, but my small particle size (2-4mm) means I get too much water holding, so am going to use way less of it, and try crushing (7-25mm) expensive scoria or add more perlite.
So, no brainer really for you, as available Akadama is trumps.
Charles

 

[eryk2kartman]

How about this? i found it very good
https://www.petplanet.co.uk/product.asp?dept_id=520&pf_id=68771

 

[Japonicus]

...im curious what other people have found works. currently im leaning towards using pine bark so that the mycorrhizal fungi have something to eat but the other part of me is thinking put a bit of akadama in there as its not a massive part of the mix.

thanks!

6 Gallons 1/4 Inch Monto Clay pH 5.6 (Montmorillonite Calcined Clay) Bonsai Soil Amendment (24Dry Quarts) – Bonsai Jack ©

www.bonsaijack.com

There have been some bad batches of Akadama as well as the NAPA 8822 floor dry.
The bad thing about the 8822 is the particle size (when blended with desired 1/4" components)
always sifts to the bottom even mixing up just a sieve full, and pour into a bucket.
Start filling in around the roots and working it in, down it goes again.
I've had the 2 Line hard Fired Akadama turn to mush in accelerated fashion, others have had issues with 8822 DE being consistent.
I use so little of it that one bag full has lasted me beyond making a consistency call myself. It holds a lot of water.
I've had the same brand of Akadama hold up considerably longer too. So a crap shot IMHO.
Link above, is clay that is calcined or hard fired unlike Akadama so it outlasts with similar properties, but consistent for sure.
[From the link above:

• Similar properties of hard Akadama.
• Uniform 1/4 inch Particle size prevents dry spots, poor drainage and settling.
• Acidifying soil amendment
• Pathogen free high fired clay
• Available in 2 Quart, 1 Gallon, 2 Gallon, 3.5 Gallon, 7 Gallon, 14 Gallon and 28 Gallon SKUs

Monto Clay® comes from the same company, mine and processing plant as Turface®. It's the exact same product, only larger. Although this is technically 1/4 inch Turface we are not permitted to sell it as Turface®. This is because it conflicts with the Turface brand name. The folks at Profile products were kind enough to manufacture this product to our specifications. This product is exclusive to the Bonsai Jack product line.
End of link reference]

What I use with mine in my setting is similar to your

Bonsaiempire soil recommendation for conifers is 33% Akadama, 33% Lava and 33% Pumice

except I substitute the Akadama with the Monto Clay and + equal parts of Pine bark and Douglas fir bark
so 25% ea (Clay, Lava, Pumice and bark), works for my intentions as I've been weening off the Akadama part.
In fact I don't think I've used Akadama for 2 years now.

 

[Emanon]

Maybe its got more to do with the type of akadama than anything.

I've definitely found this to be true. This (see attached picture) super hard fired akadama is almost a different species altogether. This type almost looks and feels more like Turface than it does akadama. In fact, I'd be curious to hear from people who swear by Turface/Monto Clay -- and who are militant in their use of it and in their rejection of akadama -- if they have tried this particular type of super fired akadama. It seems like a more than suitable substitute for Turface. But, anyway, I've used this type of akadama for years without noticing any of the breakdown that I see with regular hard akadama. Of course, this might not be a good thing because I'm not sure roots can grow into it like they can with regular hard akadama and you might be sacrificing this benefit for the sake of having a particle that lasts more or less indefinitely.