Colorado’s Literati Ponderosa Pine

[misfit11]

I like the sketch, I like the idea. Ultimately though and my biggest gripe with Pondy, is the needles size. With your tree, the needles and foliage mass will always be a blob of green on a small trunk, relative to the needle size that is.

This is where I'm at with Ponderosa Pine for bonsai as well. Unless youve got a very large tree, the needles will always seem out of scale, IMO.

I realize there are many out there that love this native pine, and certainly there are some with trunks that are mind-blowing, but the inability to bring the needle size down within proportion is often a deal breaker for me.

What about grafting JBP on this? Some might consider me a heretic for even suggesting such a thing, but it could give you a better tree.

Just a thought...

 

[Colorado]

I like the look of number 1. Adds a bit more drama to the tree and makes the trunk more of a highlight by adding more movement. I just don’t love the upright nature of the trunk in its current state. I was partially inspired by a tree Harry Harrington just styled. Needles were much smaller but I loved the look.

Thanks for the input man! I will have to think about that.

I had seen a photo on instagram of a tree that inspired that sketch I did, but now I can’t find the photo back should have snapped a screenshot when I first saw it haha.

 

[Hartinez]

Thanks for the input man! I will have to think about that.

I had seen a photo on instagram of a tree that inspired that sketch I did, but now I can’t find the photo back should have snapped a screenshot when I first saw it haha.

I hate that. Happens to me with recipes sometimes

 

[Colorado]

This is where I'm at with Ponderosa Pine for bonsai as well. Unless youve got a very large tree, the needles will always seem out of scale, IMO.

I realize there are many out there that love this native pine, and certainly there are some with trunks that are mind-blowing, but the inability to bring the needle size down within proportion is often a deal breaker for me.

What about grafting JBP on this? Some might consider me a heretic for even suggesting such a thing, but it could give you a better tree.

Just a thought...

Fair points for sure. When I acquired the tree 4 years ago, I didn’t really understand how hard it is to get the needles to reduce. I probably wouldn’t get another pondy so small (fully to say small, it’s probably at least 24” tall lol).

I don’t think you are a heretic at all for suggesting grafting. I think I mentioned that idea earlier in the thread actually. I don’t think I would do JBP because I don’t want to have to protect it in the winter, but the thought has definitely crossed my mind to graft it with limber pine, pinion pine, or JWP. Problem is, I have never grafted anything so I’m not very confident in my ability to successfully execute that

 

[misfit11]

Grafting does require a certain skill set, and even with the knowledge, there are no guarantees that you'll be successful. I've had successes and failures, for sure. Get a hold of a bonsai professional to teach you or do a workshop. It's a great skill to have and opens up options.

Alternatively, you can just pay a professional to do it for you. I'm having Peter Tea graft Itoigawa on a San Jose Juniper of mine .it's not cheap, but I want to get the tree on the road ASAP. While my grafting skills are okay, I'm not Peter Tea

 

[Colorado]

Grafting does require a certain skill set, and even with the knowledge, there are no guarantees that you'll be successful. I've had successes and failures, for sure. Get a hold of a bonsai professional to teach you or do a workshop. It's a great skill to have and opens up options.

Alternatively, you can just pay a professional to do it for you. I'm having Peter Tea graft Itoigawa on a San Jose Juniper of mine .it's not cheap, but I want to get the tree on the road ASAP. While my grafting skills are okay, I'm not Peter Tea

The thought definitely crossed my mind to ask Todd Schlafer if he could just do it for me lol. I am sure that it would cost me a lot more than the tree did, though

I have not ruled out grafting. I am thinking that I want to get it into a different pot, let it settle into a new design, and then maybe reconsider on grafting in a couple years. Hell maybe this would be good tree to practice grafting on anyway.

 

[clem]

Hey T Money! Took your input, @Dav4 input and some ideas I had and did a few mockups for you. number 1 just creates a big angle change, number 2 is playing somewhat on Daves idea, number 3 is the opposite of number 1 and number 4 is I think what you're considering. I have my favorite, but i'm not telling till you say so!!

View attachment 575115

hello, nice virts
I'm usually not into super dynamic trees (beaten by the winds) but i prefer the N°3 with small plants to fill up the base of the trunk ->


If it was my tree, i I would be afraid that the rendering of the bending of option 4 would be artificial

 

[Colorado]

hello, nice virts
I'm usually not into super dynamic trees (beaten by the winds) but i prefer the N°3 with small plants to fill up the base of the trunk ->
View attachment 576814

If it was my tree, i I would be afraid that the rendering of the bending of option 4 would be artificial

Thanks, Clem! I still don’t know what I’m going to do with this tree . After thinking about it more and playing around with the tree, I think you are right that No. 4 would look artificial.

Also, I have been thinking that I actually need to elongate the design, rather than compacting it. Here is another crude drawing that I made this morning while drinking my coffee



Maybe I will plant it at a new angle in a different pot and just let it grow for a few years. Perhaps I am trying to force it when the tree is not really speaking to me yet. Hopefully the time will come someday

 

[NaoTK]

Have you read Hagedorn's blogs 1 2 3 on bunjin? I find it helpful to reread every year and maybe it will give you ideas. https://crataegus.com//?s=bunjin

 

[Colorado]

Have you read Hagedorn's blogs 1 2 3 on bunjin? I find it helpful to reread every year and maybe it will give you ideas. https://crataegus.com//?s=bunjin

I will have to take a look at that. Thanks, Nao!

 

[clem]

Thanks, Clem! I still don’t know what I’m going to do with this tree . After thinking about it more and playing around with the tree, I think you are right that No. 4 would look artificial.

Also, I have been thinking that I actually need to elongate the design, rather than compacting it. Here is another crude drawing that I made this morning while drinking my coffee

View attachment 576828

Maybe I will plant it at a new angle in a different pot and just let it grow for a few years. Perhaps I am trying to force it when the tree is not really speaking to me yet. Hopefully the time will come someday

It is a good idea, like the 1rst virtual of Hartinez.
IMO, the more you lean the tree to the left, the better, because the bump, the belly will disapear and the trunk line will become more elegant. The virtual with the most visible belly is the one on the left (red line). The virtual that i prefer is the one on the right (N°4).. but i dunno if the roots will be OK with such an inclination

your opinion ?

 

[Wood]

Someone mentioned a variety of super-dwarf ponderosa that had small needles, and trying to graft that onto regular ponderosa. I think it was Jeremiah on the Black Pondo podcast, but I can't recall what episode. The downside they discussed was that you kinda needed to build the tree with the wild-type foliage because the super-dwarf was even slower growing than regular ponderosa. You'd probably need a relatively high success rate and lots of grafts on small/developed branches. Might be hard, but it's an option that would probably be winter-hardy in your area

On the restyling ideas, I like the ones that are changing the angle severely. The apex is almost directly over the edge of the pot, like the tree can't decide if it wants to cantilever out, or stay inside the boundaries of the pot

 

[Colorado]

It is a good idea, like the 1rst virtual of Hartinez.
IMO, the more you lean the tree to the left, the better, because the bump, the belly will disapear and the trunk line will become more elegant. The virtual with the most visible belly is the one on the left (red line). The virtual that i prefer is the one on the right (N°4).. but i dunno if the roots will be OK with such an inclination
View attachment 576862
your opinion ?

It is a good idea, like the 1rst virtual of Hartinez.
IMO, the more you lean the tree to the left, the better, because the bump, the belly will disapear and the trunk line will become more elegant. The virtual with the most visible belly is the one on the left (red line). The virtual that i prefer is the one on the right (N°4).. but i dunno if the roots will be OK with such an inclination
View attachment 576862
your opinion ?

Love those options. The good news is that I can tilt it as far to the left as I want and the roots will be just fine. Can’t really tilt it to the right though.

I’m excited for spring to repot at a new angle and go from there!

 

[Colorado]

Someone mentioned a variety of super-dwarf ponderosa that had small needles, and trying to graft that onto regular ponderosa. I think it was Jeremiah on the Black Pondo podcast, but I can't recall what episode. The downside they discussed was that you kinda needed to build the tree with the wild-type foliage because the super-dwarf was even slower growing than regular ponderosa. You'd probably need a relatively high success rate and lots of grafts on small/developed branches. Might be hard, but it's an option that would probably be winter-hardy in your area

On the restyling ideas, I like the ones that are changing the angle severely. The apex is almost directly over the edge of the pot, like the tree can't decide if it wants to cantilever out, or stay inside the boundaries of the pot

I like the idea. But if I am going to go to the trouble of grafting it, I would definitely choose something NOT ponderosa

Limber or piñon would be the best choices in my opinion.

 

[Mike Westervelt]

Always appreciated the styling of this tree, but gotta say @Hartinez and @clem left leaning versions particularly Clem's around # 2 and 3 really work for me

 

[Vincent Tanner]

I like the idea. But if I am going to go to the trouble of grafting it, I would definitely choose something NOT ponderosa

Limber or piñon would be the best choices in my opinion.

I’ve bounced this idea around in my own head… I have a very small Ponderosa, and I’m not sure what the long term image will look like with the natural foliage.

Of course, I’ve never grafted anything so I’m clueless.

I see myself most likely leaving the foliage. Maybe I’ll never repot it and see if the needles reduce in the next ten years, lol.

 

[Hartinez]

I like the idea. But if I am going to go to the trouble of grafting it, I would definitely choose something NOT ponderosa

Limber or piñon would be the best choices in my opinion.

Hi I’m TJ, this is my ponderosa pine grafted ponderosa pine.

 

[clem]

I've seen a ponderosa pine of Ryan Neil with very small needles and lots of ramifications. Ryan says that with a good fertilisation, sunlight, old needle removal (to let sunlight enter) new buds can appear on the branches and the more buds, the smaller the needles, even with generous fertilization (recommended by Ryan)
Ryan is a professionnal who masters everything.. but theoricaly, you can reduce the needles size with ramifications

Here are the pics (screenshots from Mirai) ->

Ryan shows the long needles of this year's growth (normal with generous fertiliszation) ->

Ryan shows the difference betwen this year's needles (very long) and last year's needle (shorter in the wild) ->

On this nude section, new buds should appear ->


A pondi with long needles (but few ramifications ) it is the first step ->


A pondi with more ramifications, (next step), the needles are getting smaller ->


Ryans shows the new buds ->


A more advanced tree, the needles are far shorter that the previous trees ->


The goal ->

 

[Wood]

Hi I’m TJ, this is my ponderosa pine grafted ponderosa pine.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I've seen a ponderosa pine of Ryan Neil with very small needles and lots of ramifications. Ryan says that with a good fertilisation, sunlight, old needle removal (to let sunlight enter) new buds can appear on the branches and the more buds, the smaller the needles, even with generous fertilization (recommended by Ryan)
Ryan is a professionnal who masters everything.. but theoricaly, you can reduce the needles size with ramifications

Here are the pics (screenshots from Mirai) ->

Ryan shows the long needles of this year's growth (normal with generous fertiliszation) ->
View attachment 576898
Ryan shows the difference betwen this year's needles (very long) and last year's needle (shorter in the wild) ->
View attachment 576899
On this nude section, new buds should appear ->
View attachment 576900

A pondi with long needles (but few ramifications ) it is the first step ->
View attachment 576901

A pondi with more ramifications, (next step), the needles are getting smaller ->
View attachment 576902

Ryans shows the new buds ->
View attachment 576903

A more advanced tree, the needles are far shorter that the previous trees ->
View attachment 576904

The goal ->
View attachment 576905

My ponderosa produce relatively small needles with one simple trick:
Clip off all the existing buds in spring, just before growth starts.
All new growth that follows in july with stay 1/3-1/4th the size of the original needle size.

I worked well for my EWP as well.