Collected Cedar Elm need some advise

[travislivid]

I have been collecting a few Cedar elms. This is my favorite one. It has a 2.5" trunk and is 22" tall right now. It was dug up with a good deal of fine roots. I cut most of the unneccesarily long growth. In trying to keep with a 1 to 6 ratio this tree would need to end up at 15" if the trunk is the size it is now. So questions:

Do I cut the trunk down now or wait? When?
Most advise on Cedar Elm is to cut the trunk down on collection. I am just a bit at a loss where to do that here.

Where to cut?

Maybe I am off on the need to keep to a 1 to 6 ratio on a cedar elm?

I have a diagram that has a few possible points that it could be cut down to. Or even lower?

One issue is that there is a lower branch that has grown alot taller then the topcurrent leader which grew straight out

Please forgive my newbness!
Just trying to learn

 

[Dav4]

My only suggestions at this point; 1) please post more pictures from different angles, but not from above. It's difficult to see the real structure of the tree if the pics aren't taken at eye level to the trunk. 2) Forget about the 1 to 6 ratio...it's merely a suggeston and doesn't always apply, particularly to collected material.

 

[Mike423]

Forget about the 1 to 6 ratio...it's merely a suggeston and doesn't always apply, particularly to collected material.

I agree no need to be adamant on having the 1:6 be present. Also while its hard to say with the limited pictures available I would say given as is the yellow line would be the best chop reduction spot. as far as reducing the trunk while collecting.... It would be my opinion that it depends. I would leave it if: there was sufficient root mass and I wanted to further the trunk growth, if the tree was previously collected and is just beginning to recover since the trunk reduction at that point in time might weaken the tree further, as well as other factors. Since you basically stated what you have in mind for this tree, when was it dug up and how large is the root mass?

 

[travislivid]

Here are some more pics from different angles. You can see the cut I made in the field to take the top off.
Just trying to figure out what is next. Thanks for looking.
As far as 1 to 6 goes, the cedar elms in texas i have seen tend to be tall and thin even the old ones so something like a 1 to 10 may be a better replication of an old tree in the wild. I am sure we can get more opinions on this.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

2) Forget about the 1 to 6 ratio...it's merely a suggeston and doesn't always apply, particularly to collected material.

damn skippy!!!!

also Dav4 asked for picture NOT from above (those won't help us here) so please post more eye level pictures.... we can help you much better that way


ratios..... hmmm .... stop trying to think of them that way.... you'll get ur head all spinny and make a decision you will later regret....

You know what Cedar elms look like... that helps a lot.... but just cuz its a cedar elm doesn't mean it has to look like one.... this is a very interesting tree and I happen to personally REALLY like it.... so Ima tell you how I would treat it if it lived at my place....

1) all those branches at the base.... thats pure GOLD ... I love it.... those provide an ancient gnarly feel.... they need to be developed some more but provide the best parts of the focal point in this tree....

2) the height is nice... truly ancient trees have little taper (they have it but its not as dramatic as young trees) I would work the branching to be a little tighter and develop some ramification in closer while keeping the open feeling of the crown...

3) I would also organize the secondary branching a bit and add some gnarlyness and movement bringing it down and out a bit after removing those branches which surely must go (let your gut and eyes NOT your head tell which ones those are)

after a few years it would get placed in a nice antique tokonome pot... I know exactly which one sitting in my garage ... interestingly its a fine unglazed shallow wide rectangle with a thin lip and gentle cloud feet.....

wow OK I REALLY LOVE this tree..... too bad you don't live closer I would love to come work on this tree with you.....

 

[travislivid]

Sometimes I am thick headed. I totally read that and thought you wanted shots from above! Oops!
Will take more in th morning and post from eye level. I was wondering why you would ask for pics from above? The tree looks so much better from below.

 

[Zach Smith]

You've cut enough off the trunk for now (possibly ever, the tree terminates just fine). You need to cut back the branches, I'd say roughly 1/3 or so. They should back-bud just fine.

Don't stress over the 1:6 thing (ever); stress if you get past 1:12, stress if you've got no taper, stress if you've got no trunk movement and can't make a decent formal upright. You've got a bonsai in the making here, it'll look very natural.

Great material!

Zach

 

[travislivid]

ok.... here are some more pictures NOT FROM ABOVE!

 

[rockm]

I'd echo Zach's remarks, although, I'd cut the branches back by TWO thirds--top branches even more. If you leave the branches on the longish side, the tree is going to push new buds pretty far out from the trunk--cedar elm tends to back bud on the ends of branches.

A closer cropping of the branches (and some editing of branches that aren't needed) will produce a tighter form.

This is nice natural looking material. DO NOT try to impose the silly 1:6 rule on it. Collected material very rarely conforms to bonsai "ideals" and THAT IS WHY PEOPLE WORK WITH IT.

 

[Zach Smith]

Yeah, rockm, I think the 2/3rds is better. Good observation.

Zach

 

[Ang3lfir3]

these better images tell a different story about the tree... looked a little like there was a small clump/connected root ness going on there... it might be worth it to lower the tree in the pot depending on if the tree was collected with any real nebari or not....

it's not the tree I originally thought it was but it is still really nice material to work with.... and of course you already know that rockm's advice is great

 

[rockm]

I would be surprised if there is a hugely attractive nebari there. Cedar elm, at least the specimens I've dug, don't have really terrific nebari. I think that's because they like to live in areas that accrete alot of silt and runoff. That tends to force the tree to produce a "multi-level" root system to adapt to ever-deepening soil at the trunk base.

It's not a deal breaker, however, much like the odd shaped root masses on ponderosa, the species more than makes up for it in other ways, vastly vigorous twigging, easy branch replacement, extremely fine aged bark and TINY leaves. Having worked with Cedar elm and Chinese elm for years, I can say I think Cedar elm is equal to, or better than the chinese elm as bonsai.

 

[Dav4]

these better images tell a different story about the tree... looked a little like there was a small clump/connected root ness going on there... it might be worth it to lower the tree in the pot depending on if the tree was collected with any real nebari or not....

it's not the tree I originally thought it was but it is still really nice material to work with.... and of course you already know that rockm's advice is great

My thoughts exactly...thought I saw a killer 2 trunk in the making. Still, a nice piece of collected material with lots of character. Thanks for the better pics.

 

[LeonardB]

I have been collecting a few Cedar elms. This is my favorite one. It has a 2.5" trunk and is 22" tall right now. It was dug up with a good deal of fine roots. I cut most of the unneccesarily long growth. In trying to keep with a 1 to 6 ratio this tree would need to end up at 15" if the trunk is the size it is now. So questions:

Do I cut the trunk down now or wait? When?
Most advise on Cedar Elm is to cut the trunk down on collection. I am just a bit at a loss where to do that here.

Where to cut?

Maybe I am off on the need to keep to a 1 to 6 ratio on a cedar elm?

I have a diagram that has a few possible points that it could be cut down to. Or even lower?

One issue is that there is a lower branch that has grown alot taller then the topcurrent leader which grew straight out

Please forgive my newbness!
Just trying to learn
View attachment 20725View attachment 20726

You didn't mention when this was collected. And what it was planted in as well. If this is a recent collection then you should spend the next couple of seasons just growing it healthy and happy. And along the way read everything you can find about care and feeding so that when the time comes for pruning and refinement you don't risk your beautiful find. IMHO

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

You didn't mention when this was collected. And what it was planted in as well. If this is a recent collection then you should spend the next couple of seasons just growing it healthy and happy. And along the way read everything you can find about care and feeding so that when the time comes for pruning and refinement you don't risk your beautiful find. IMHO

Nothing about this is recent.... Thread is more than 7 years old, and the OP has been MIA for nearly 5.

 

[LeonardB]

Oh sure, now I see it. Is my face red.