Chinese Juniper - going to need a plan soon!

[keri-wms]

I've been slowly shortening the (dead straight) branches on this for a couple of years to try and get some foliage on the more interesting areas nearer the trunk......and so far I've preserved all the branches I can so I've got more design possibilities. I've left more length on the thinner branches as they can be easily wired.

But it's nearing crunch time (well, maybe starting next year)! IF the biggest dead straight branch is going I could be getting on with air layering it off for instance.....

I'm not too keen in going deadwood mad on this one, I'd like to use as many of the heavy and established looking branches as I can!

2013:

And now. Please note: The foliage is all bright green, and every shoot has a new 1/4" growing tip - the lame colour is the camera compensating badly for some reason.

(...for reference, this was day one, 2012!)

 

[Cadillactaste]

When did you collect it? Looks like a fun project ahead of you.

 

[keri-wms]

2012 - I got the year wrong on one of my photos, will just edit it now.

 

[Ryan820]

Wow this is fantastic stock. I see some serious Jin potential... What will you do with it?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Great stock, hope you'll share photos along the way!

 

[Poink88]

Very nice stock.

I like pic #2...maybe jin the long left branch and the 2 lowest branches...then develop the tree from the rest.

 

[keri-wms]

Thanks for the comments.

I'll share photos as I go - just not sure of the direction yet! At some point I need to attack the clay ball it's in to A find the surface roots as they might decide the "front question", and B simply because as it's nasty clay and can't stay there.

The rest of the pot is 90% Turface-stuff, and 10% mashed up original soil/clay so I imagine I've got some fine roots there by now.

In terms of styles:

- Semi Cascade is possible, if I retain the big/straight branch.

- Loads of jins/deadwood and canopy made of the thin whips is possible, but a little obvious and I currently like how imposing the heavy branches are. If I did this is would be more like a Bristlecone effect than a smooth sculpture style.

- "Pine style informal upright", again as a way to use that big branch. I did a sketch of this, it's a bit old school.....but I don't have any old school trees so it would be new to me!

Maybe a bit like this:

Trouble with this is the thinner branches below the larges one, and that some branches point straight at the viewer / cross the trunk etc.

 

[fh05]

You cant follow all the "rules" every time with collected material, you have to work with what is available and sometimes bend or break the rules if there is such a thing.

And wonderful material and keep us posted. I like the sketch you made. Go for it.

 

[Lazylightningny]

If it were mine, I'd consider removing the entire left branch and doing some carving on it. In the photo it appears to have some serious reverse taper.

 

[jkd2572]

I would save it for a workshop with an touring artist.

 

[Poink88]

It can be a semi-cascade also...so many choices, that I tend to agree with jkd and get a professional advise.

 

[october]

I like your sketch for this tree. It is powerful, yet graceful. Also, you would not have to do any major chops to achieve the image. As far as the bottom branches being thinner than the top. Thats is just how some trees are and you'll have to work with it. You could do a couple things to minimize it. You could partially jin along the bottom of the upper, thicker branches. This will make them look thinner. Also, for the branch you want to thinken, if you dont prune it or prune it very little, it will thicken up. Sometimes what they will do will be to keep the growth in check and pruned on the branch. However, they create a gap from where the branch will be cut off in the future and they let the end grow long and untouched.

Here are 2 virts with these methods. The tree is just an example and not for styling purposes.

Rob

 

[keri-wms]

Thanks Rob, that's the main idea of that option in the sketch - maintain the maximum of the existing structure as I can while creating a sympathetic style. You are spot on with the sacrificial growth plan to thicken the thinner branches, it would work but the tree as it stands was in the ground for over 30 years so it would take a while to catch up!

I can also look at splitting the large branch and other odd things like that, but again it starts getting more invasive.

---- guys -----

This is the most challenging tree I've owned which is why I'm happy to take the time to think about it rather than dive in.

But I did work in a bonsai nursary for several years (the most interesting part being restyling their Japanese White Pines plus the obvious watering or course!), I've done full day workshops with Peter Chan and Harry Tomlinson, have been a member of two bonsai clubs and had trees in their exhibitions, went to art college, have a few hundred trees (many of which I've owned for over 25 years)....

I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but how can people progress without trying something difficult?

 

[Poink88]

This is the most challenging tree I've owned which is why I'm happy to take the time to think about it rather than dive in.

But I did work in a bonsai nursary for several years (the most interesting part being restyling their Japanese White Pines plus the obvious watering or course!), I've done full day workshops with Peter Chan and Harry Tomlinson, have been a member of two bonsai clubs and had trees in their exhibitions, went to art college, have a few hundred trees (many of which I've owned for over 25 years)....

I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but how can people progress without trying something difficult?

They can but much slower.

I didn't know your experience so I made assumptions (same as others I think). Sounds like you are more than ready to tackle this beast. Good luck and please keep us posted!

 

[october]

They can but much slower.

I didn't know your experience so I made assumptions (same as others I think). Sounds like you are more than ready to tackle this beast. Good luck and please keep us posted!

Yes, as Dario said, I was not aware of your experience either so I apologize. I think this tree is amazing and I can't wait to see what your final plan is. Also, thank you for politely explaining your experience. Sometimes, when advice is given and one is not aware of people's experience, people snap back harshly with how much experience they have. It was nice to have a civil and friendly reply. I am glad you listed your experience, I think it is important to know one's bonsai background. This way, you can skip the basic talk and get right down to ideas.

Rob

 

[keri-wms]

They can but much slower.

I didn't know your experience so I made assumptions (same as others I think). Sounds like you are more than ready to tackle this beast. Good luck and please keep us posted!

No worries! Slower for the tree, or slower in terms of pushing my own skills?

To be fair most of the advice I've had in terms of the tree is to leave it alone a bit more than I have, but I hope the back budding it's been doing will be fairly established in 1-2 years from now. There are 3-4" long shoots from near the bases of most of the branches near the top, so the crown will be fine - it's the lower branches that are being more subborn. I did try several grafts actually, but it doesn't seem to have worked!

The odd thing about some angles on the trunk is it's got such and "S" curve that it likes a bit artificial to me - even though it's 100% done it on it's own. I could lose the lower branches as short jins and pull the higher ones down to make the most of the resulting clean trunk taper but that "S" would be even more pronounced.

Yes, as Dario said, I was not aware of your experience either so I apologize. I think this tree is amazing and I can't wait to see what your final plan is. Also, thank you for politely explaining your experience. Sometimes, when advice is given and one is not aware of people's experience, people snap back harshly with how much experience they have. It was nice to have a civil and friendly reply. I am glad you listed your experience, I think it is important to know one's bonsai background. This way, you can skip the basic talk and get right down to ideas.

Rob

No problem at all - I don't mind advice or ideas at all, I suppose my view is that I see more and more elitism in the Bonsai world and it simply wasn't there AT ALL when I was a kid and took up the hobby. And when I was younger that's what is "was" in the UK at least, a "hobby" - if it's now a recognised art form then in my book all the hobbyists are also now artists too, no one is left behind.

And anyway, even a stick in a pot is more artistic than bags of rubbish as an installation "arranged with meaning", or an unmade bed, even if they ARE in a national gallery.....

I've got loads of experience in some areas, but failings in others, like:
- Haven't done much carving
- I've got too many trees, and am spread too thin as a result!
- Pines don't get on with me as I keep forgetting the one-insult-per-year rule. :-/
- I'm not picky enough about material, anything with bark and roots ends up in a pot somewhere!!!
- I'm always a bit too slow taking wire off...doh.
- If material has too many options that I like, I end up delaying in case I change my mind later on!
- I don't have enough spare time to really make the most of my trees, so I need to reduce their numbers greatly.
- My feeding isn't organised enough.
- I really like lists and I ramble on too much!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jkd2572]

I just meant that that would be awesome to take to a workshop and have someone who has worked on hundreds of trees to bounce ideas off of. No insult intended. Nice material. We all know seeing a tree in a picture and seeing it in real life is so different. Will love to see where you take this.

 

[edprocoat]

Thanks Rob, that's the main idea of that option in the sketch - maintain the maximum of the existing structure as I can while creating a sympathetic style. You are spot on with the sacrificial growth plan to thicken the thinner branches, it would work but the tree as it stands was in the ground for over 30 years so it would take a while to catch up!

I can also look at splitting the large branch and other odd things like that, but again it starts getting more invasive.

---- guys -----

This is the most challenging tree I've owned which is why I'm happy to take the time to think about it rather than dive in.

But I did work in a bonsai nursary for several years (the most interesting part being restyling their Japanese White Pines plus the obvious watering or course!), I've done full day workshops with Peter Chan and Harry Tomlinson, have been a member of two bonsai clubs and had trees in their exhibitions, went to art college, have a few hundred trees (many of which I've owned for over 25 years)....

I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but how can people progress without trying something difficult?

So what you are saying is, you have no idea what the hell you are doing !



Nice tree. The large branch sticking out to the left in your second picture the one that seems to have some reverse taper at the end near the whorl of branches, have you thought about removing that one. I was thinking it would be a candidate for an air layer about 2 inches or so out from the main trunk, leaving you with a nice little Mame Bonsai and a piece to jin. The Chinese Juni's seem to air layer easily enough.

ed

 

[keri-wms]

Yup, not a clue!

That one branch is the biggest decision, it's actually still pretty big in itself (pops outside with a ruler....)

Ok, the big straight branch is 2.5" thick at it's thinnest point, by 16" long (thick woody part only), so would be more of a Shohin than a Mame!

The trunk is 5" thick, thicker lower down where the roots start to flare etc.

In actual fact this tree had to be "pushed through" the door to get it in the garden, which was only possible as it was semi bare rooted. If I wanted to move house (or take it to see the club) I would have to bare root it again or lift it over a 6ft fench into next door's garden then over their back fence - I reckon in it's pot it's about 15-20kg.

 

[keri-wms]

To clarify what I CAN'T do with the branching I jinned (well, just debarked) the dead branches and sub-branches, and took out all the dead inner shoots etc.

It makes it a lot less confusing to look at actually! I won't carve anything until I know what the final design is.

Conversely anything with bark is/should still be live, so can be used in that area (like the thinner part right at the end of the biggest branch) or heavily bent to go somewhere else.