Chinese elm or Zelkova

[vcnsiqueira]

Hello guys!

I've recently read here that it is common that Chinese elms are imported as Zelkovas due to customs restrictions regarding elms.

Well, in the beginning of Spring I bought three plants in a bonsai pot which were sold as Zelkovas. I bring them home and I've been taking care of them and they are thriving. I repotted them all in bigger pots cause I want them to grow a bit and they are super healthy.

Also, in the meantime I sowed some Chinese elm seeds and now I have other 9 Chinese elms saplings. The point is that they are quite similar to me and I think maybe my Zelkovas are actually also Chinese elms. These are the pictures of one of the "Zelkovas". Is it a real one or is it a Chinese elm?



The three of them are really beautiful and growing spectacularly. I pruned them about one and a half month ago, but I will have to do it again probably next weekend.

Also, I'm sending photos of my Chinese elm saplings, but those I grew from seeds, so I know they are Chinese elms.



About the first three pictures, do you think I should prune and wire some of these branches so I can start develop some layers in this S-shaped three? Or I should wait until autumn or winter to do it?

 

[penumbra]

Yes, Chinese Elms.

 

[leatherback]

all of these are elms

 

[rockm]

Hello guys!

I've recently read here that it is common that Chinese elms are imported as Zelkovas due to customs restrictions regarding elms.

Well, in the beginning of Spring I bought three plants in a bonsai pot which were sold as Zelkovas. I bring them home and I've been taking care of them and they are thriving. I repotted them all in bigger pots cause I want them to grow a bit and they are super healthy.

Also, in the meantime I sowed some Chinese elm seeds and now I have other 9 Chinese elms saplings. The point is that they are quite similar to me and I think maybe my Zelkovas are actually also Chinese elms. These are the pictures of one of the "Zelkovas". Is it a real one or is it a Chinese elm?

View attachment 560674View attachment 560675View attachment 560676

The three of them are really beautiful and growing spectacularly. I pruned them about one and a half month ago, but I will have to do it again probably next weekend.

Also, I'm sending photos of my Chinese elm saplings, but those I grew from seeds, so I know they are Chinese elms.

View attachment 560677View attachment 560678

About the first three pictures, do you think I should prune and wire some of these branches so I can start develop some layers in this S-shaped three? Or I should wait until autumn or winter to do it?

All these look like Chinese Elms to me.

Also why would you want to wire them into "S" shapes? FWIW, "S" shaped Chinese Elms are pretty much the realm of mass market, cheapo bonsai. For the most part, anyone doing bonsai for long avoids the "S" style with a vengeance. Look beyond simply wiring seedlings and longer term--think clip and grow instead of wiring to push movement into your trees. Takes longer, but it makes a better, more convincing bonsai down the road. Think larger trunks, bigger trees.

 

[Srt8madness]

All these look like Chinese Elms to me.

Also why would you want to wire them into "S" shapes? FWIW, "S" shaped Chinese Elms are pretty much the realm of mass market, cheapo bonsai. For the most part, anyone doing bonsai for long avoids the "S" style with a vengeance. Look beyond simply wiring seedlings and longer term--think clip and grow instead of wiring to push movement into your trees. Takes longer, but it makes a better, more convincing bonsai down the road. Think larger trunks, bigger trees.

3 of then are already in an S shape.

To the OP:
The good thing about elms is that they can be chopped and reshaped fairly easily, so if you did want something else, you can lose the S but keep the lower movement.

 

[vcnsiqueira]

@rockm it is not that I want the S shape. As @Srt8madness pointed out, the first three (older threes - fake zelkovas) already came into an S shape. As I already have other 9 Chinese elms saplings, of course I will not shape them as an S shape. My idea, so far, is let them grow until I have a thick trunk, then chop and maybe wire (so I can get taper). Also considering wiring one or two into a semi cascade style (still don't know). But, specifically those 3 older ones (similar to the first photo), I think I will keep the S shape and create some pads. That's the current idea for those three. Eventually, I can chop one of them to grow into a different style.

What do you think about it?

 

[rockm]

@rockm it is not that I want the S shape. As @Srt8madness pointed out, the first three (older threes - fake zelkovas) already came into an S shape. As I already have other 9 Chinese elms saplings, of course I will not shape them as an S shape. My idea, so far, is let them grow until I have a thick trunk, then chop and maybe wire (so I can get taper). Also considering wiring one or two into a semi cascade style (still don't know). But, specifically those 3 older ones (similar to the first photo), I think I will keep the S shape and create some pads. That's the current idea for those three. Eventually, I can chop one of them to grow into a different style.

What do you think about it?

Re think the wiring. Wire is not the best way to get decent movement in deciduous trees. It has it's place, but it is only one tool. Wire is most effective for shaping conifers, which have much more flexible wood. Deciduous trees have very brittle wood that can 't be bent for effective movement. They can be wired, but it is usually for secondary and tertiary branching and twigging on branches. Deciduous bonsai trunks are grown out, regrown, cut back and regrown again, and again and again. That can't be done as effectively as conifers, because they don't respond as well to hard pruning (which can kill them if done incorrectly).

Chinese elm grow and thicken so quickly, the "cut and grow" method works very well with them to develop dramatic results that aren't possible with wiring. That is particularly true with cascade and semicascade trees. People often wire them into rainbow curves to subdue them into more horizontal lines. That mostly looks contrived and artificial, more so years from the initial wiring. Cascade and semicascade styles imply very harsh conditions that have bent the tree to the wind's or altitudes' whims. Gentle rainbow curves are out of place. Sharp, angular, dramatic curves are not. Those styles also have an architecture that's similar to formal upright-as they have a relatively short, upright apex branch (which is almost as important as the cascade itself. The initial trunks of Cascade and semicascade style trees are initially pruned very hard to force buds very low to the nebari. The resulting branching is selected grown out and pruned hard directionally. This takes some time, but the end results can be terrific if you have the patience.