Can you "pre-innoculate" growing media with mycorhizzal fungi?

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

Hi folks, first off don't worry I'm not planning to bareroot any pines in the middle of July.

I have a couple of JBP that I bought this past April-ish, and slip potted into terracotta flower pots to wait until I have a actual seasonally appropriate repotting opportunity. I'd like to get them into pond baskets this coming winter to let them mostly grow wild next year and bulk up a bit and start developing some good sacrifice branches.

Most of what I've read about JBP repotting warns against barerooting pines, because they require mycorhizzal fungi in their soil (although I have not had a lot of luck in determining actual species that naturally form mycorhizzal relationships with black pines), and removing the fungi can negatively impact the health of the tree.

What I was curious about, and I was unsure what terms to search to see if there might be any information about this on the forum already, has anyone tried/had success with introducing a myrcorhizzal fungi supplement, or maybe inoculating with already fungally colonized soil, or something, and let that spread throughout a new media before potting a pine into it? My suspicion is that being planted into a fungally prepared media would make the repotting stress less severe, but I have not tested it (maybe if no one knows I will do this as an experiment when we get closer to autumn).

 

[rockm]

. You can spend large amounts of $ on prepared myc "innoculants" at nurseries. Waste of time and money, imo. Myc is SPECIES specific. What works for a pine won't work for a hornbeam. What works for black pine may not work for Ponderosa. Myc comes in more than one variety--some are endomophic (inside the root tip) and ectomorphic (surrounding the root tips). THey're not interchangeable for trees, some trees use ecto, some use endo.

By far the best most cost effective way to introduce the best myc is to use what is already present IN YOUR TREES. That means including a small scoop of old soil in the new soil at repotting. It's pretty standard procedure with most folks. It will re-establish itself in the root mass, as the roots recover. It isn't automatically established (even with the prepared stuff). Takes some time.

Trying to grow myc in a pot without a tree by my guess likely isn't going to work, since the relationship between myc and the tree is symbiotic--BOTH receive benefits--the myc gets the roots to live on/in. The plant gets myc's ability to break down nutrients. Myc is not vitally necessary for trees. It helps them. They can survive without. I don't think myc as we know it can live by itself

 

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

. You can spend large amounts of $ on prepared myc "innoculants" at nurseries. Waste of time and money, imo. Myc is SPECIES specific. What works for a pine won't work for a hornbeam. What works for black pine may not work for Ponderosa. Myc comes in more than one variety--some are endomophic (inside the root tip) and ectomorphic (surrounding the root tips). THey're not interchangeable for trees, some trees use ecto, some use endo.

By far the best most cost effective way to introduce the best myc is to use what is already present IN YOUR TREES. That means including a small scoop of old soil in the new soil at repotting. It's pretty standard procedure with most folks. It will re-establish itself in the root mass, as the roots recover. It isn't automatically established (even with the prepared stuff). Takes some time.

Trying to grow myc in a pot without a tree by my guess likely isn't going to work, since the relationship between myc and the tree is symbiotic--BOTH receive benefits--the myc gets the roots to live on/in. The plant gets myc's ability to break down nutrients. Myc is not vitally necessary for trees. It helps them. They can survive without. I don't think myc as we know it can live by itself

Yes, I've been doing a little searching to see if I can locate what species are mycorhizzal with JBP but have not had much success with it, people seem to largely refer to mycorhizzae as if it is one particular species if fungus, which is of course untrue, but no one mentions even any genuses like amanita or russula, which are often coexisting with North American conifers.

 

[Cruiser]

Last Fall I added amanita mycelium and a fruiting mushroom to a collected noble fir’s soil.
The fungi was dug from right beneath another fir and is known to have a symbiotic relationship with the species.
Some other collected firs were inoculated as well.

It’s hard to say if the amanita had an effect, but it is worth noting that all inoculated trees survived collection, display strong roots, and have had a good growing season so far.

Thread 'Shohin noble fir (Abies procera)'

Nov 18, 2023

10” tall. Needles 5-10mm
In red cedar box 8”x7”x2.75”
Collected November 2023. 2600’
Growing in thin soil on a hilltop.


Noble fir roots deeply when able. This trees position over a solid rock somewhat limited root depth, making collection easier. Most roots were obtained.


The mushroom and mycelium were “planted” to try and inoculate the soil. Amanita muscaria has a symbiotic relationship with noble fir. It increases the efficiency of the trees roots for the cost of sugars. Hopefully the benefits outweigh the costs.

• Cruiser
• Replies: 4
• Forum: Other Conifers

• 

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Gotta love those fly aminita for color and style!

Would like to see if these come back this year.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Cruiser]

Gotta love those fly aminita for color and style!

Would like to see if these come back this year.

Cheers
DSD sends

I’m curious to see as well. It would be cool if they came back at a reduced size! Not sure if mushrooms can do that…

 

[Shibui]

There's plenty of info saying that although Mycorrhiza can help some trees obtain nutrients where they grow in poor soils, those same trees are also able to get nutrients direct from the soil. When we supply sufficient nutrients the Mycorrhiza become almost redundant.

In the early days I transplanted some soil to ensure some mycorrhiza moved to the new pots when repotting pines. Then I discovered that it had beaten me and colonised seedling trays of pines before I did anything. Now I don't bother transplanting or introducing fungi to the pines. It always turns up anyway and the pines still grow well. If you provide the appropriate conditions mycorrhiza will turn up.
Not sure how isolated pots can be for Mycorrhiza to appear but fungi spores are so tiny they float in air really well so will probably reach almost everywhere given some time.

There's a huge range of mychorrhizae. Some are generalists and some are specialists. The generalist types live happily with a number of plant species. It is likely there are a few present on any tree and probably different species in different climates. That may be why you can't find specific reference to a single species that works with black pines.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Fungi, if left alone, especially mycorrhizal fungi don't do well unless the conditions are perfect.
Bathroom mold for instance can take years to grow, simply because out of the billions of spores, just a few like the conditions enough to grow.

In plant soil, it's usually the plant that makes the conditions, and the fungi benefit from it.

Adding mycorrhizal starter cultures can help. We, and scientists all around the world, have an idea of what should and shouldn't work, but the fungal world is so diverse that I don't trust mycologists who say "fungal species x needs to inoculate at the seed stage of a plant otherwise it can not form a symbiosis". The strain they tested might have not done so, but there are hundreds or maybe thousands or maybe orders of magnitude larger other strains of the same species that might.

 

[rockm]

There's plenty of info saying that although Mycorrhiza can help some trees obtain nutrients where they grow in poor soils, those same trees are also able to get nutrients direct from the soil. When we supply sufficient nutrients the Mycorrhiza become almost redundant.

In the early days I transplanted some soil to ensure some mycorrhiza moved to the new pots when repotting pines. Then I discovered that it had beaten me and colonised seedling trays of pines before I did anything. Now I don't bother transplanting or introducing fungi to the pines. It always turns up anyway and the pines still grow well. If you provide the appropriate conditions mycorrhiza will turn up.
Not sure how isolated pots can be for Mycorrhiza to appear but fungi spores are so tiny they float in air really well so will probably reach almost everywhere given some time.

There's a huge range of mychorrhizae. Some are generalists and some are specialists. The generalist types live happily with a number of plant species. It is likely there are a few present on any tree and probably different species in different climates. That may be why you can't find specific reference to a single species that works with black pines.

I have also found the best way to get the optimal introduction and proper species is simply to allow it to happen on its own. Self-selecting instead. You can also find fellow black pine bonsai enthusiasts and ask for a scoop of their soil. I know some people who do that.

 

[Cruiser]

Amanita mycelium was incorporated into this fir’s soil when it was potted last November.



Both organisms have done well this season. The tree has grown a lot of new roots and the Amanita has spread considerably.