Can Pinyon / Piñon Pine Thrive in Coastal SoCal?

[hemmy]

Does anyone know of or have experience growing Pinyon Pine, either single or two needle species (Pinus monophylla or Pinus edulis), in Southern California? I know there is a P. edulis in the collection at the GSBF collection at the Huntington. My site search only turned up one thread with a collected one in CA by @Housguy. Maybe they can give us an update. I am particularly interested to know if they can grow in our coastal zone since we have slightly warmer winter lows than in Pasadena. I also think I saw one at the 8:07 mark of the Baikoen Bonsai Youtube series of Tom Vuong's garden.

P. monophylla appears to have a native range that includes the coastal portions of the Transverse Ranges in Southern California, but it looks to be limited to Zones 7-8 with lows below freezing.

Also has anyone found them in a Southern or Central California nursery?

Thank you!

 

[hemmy]

As a bonus, if anyone has grown or seen P. quadrifolia (Parry Pine) in coastal Southern California that would be interesting also!

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[Hartinez]

I would think the biggest issue may be the lack of dormancy SoCal doesn’t give. piñon are def a high desert species that can live in very cold but dry environments. they thrive in higher elevation areas around 6000-8000 ft.
I have tried multiple times collecting piñon with Zero success. There root systems are often far too corse and tap root so deep and when you dig a full ball of soil it ends up falling off easily and taking any small feeder roots with it. I read somewhere that Todd Schafer in Colorado has had success with newly collected piñon by putting them on pumice heat beds to stimulate root growth. If you could find a nursery piñon you may find they are more forgiveable, but you wouldnt get the craggy and mature bark the wild ones have.

I have collected 3 this spring and am trying something new. I potted them up in 100% pumice then wrapped the root ball, pot and all, in a black plastic bag to heat up the roots and pot and retain moisture. Hoping to stimulate, at least when the sun is out, the same conditions Todd gives his. So far so good as none have dried or dropped needles and 2 have begun to extend candles.

 

[Esolin]

Well... I have seen them for sale at one local nursery, but they don't grow the plants there, and they have a history of carrying plants that aren't always hardy to their zone (10a), like mugos and English lilacs. I like the nursery, but I do my research first. There's a Cal native species grower nearby in zone 9 or 10, and they offer Coulter and Jeffery and Foothill pines, but no pinyons. Maybe for a reason. But hey, you could order a small nursery-grown one and see how it does?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Alvaro of Chobonsaiyamadori.com has some of these and maybe can answer your questions.

 

[Housguy]

Does anyone know of or have experience growing Pinyon Pine, either single or two needle species (Pinus monophylla or Pinus edulis), in Southern California? I know there is a P. edulis in the collection at the GSBF collection at the Huntington. My site search only turned up one thread with a collected one in CA by @Housguy. Maybe they can give us an update. I am particularly interested to know if they can grow in our coastal zone since we have slightly warmer winter lows than in Pasadena. I also think I saw one at the 8:07 mark of the Baikoen Bonsai Youtube series of Tom Vuong's garden.

P. monophylla appears to have a native range that includes the coastal portions of the Transverse Ranges in Southern California, but it looks to be limited to Zones 7-8 with lows below freezing.

Also has anyone found them in a Southern or Central California nursery?

Thank you!

I did collect one that was entangled within a Utah juniper, so I had to take it and it actually was doing well, pushing new growth, but my wife unknowingly and unfortunately pulled the pot up and ripped all the roots growing into the ground from the pot and it started to decline after that. So it is still up in the air if it would have survived or not in my environment. Probably will try to collect another one to see if it survives, but I know they are tough to keep in So Cal, only time will tell.

 

[ShadyStump]

Tossing in my two cents since I'm in these things' native territory and they are my favorite tree. It the pinus edulis around here.

What @Hartinez says about pinions being difficult to collect is very true. I've tried to get one twice a year since 2019, and have collection of nice looking sticks to show for it so far. One from last fall seemed to be holding on, but has recently been way over watered by "helpful" family, so we'll see. Your best bet is if you can find one growing in a divot in the boulders and pick it up roots and all, but that takes some hunting through unforgiving terrain, not to mention allot of luck. If you can get a good 50% of all the roots the thing might have and intact and healthy as possible, you have a decent shot. Except those roots will often run 20ft in odd directions through crevices in the rocks, so good luck there too.
All that said, I have had my best luck collecting in fall shortly before the first hard freeze. I think they prefer to wake up in a new place than to see it coming in spring.

Which brings us to the dormancy issue. I would say that for pines they're fairly forgiving here, at least the ones in the ground. Around here mild winters are not uncommon. We often compete with the family that does the Holidays in Florida for who's warmer on Christmas day. So, it doesn't take much for them to go to sleep, and then very little for them to stay there. Unfortunately, there's almost no horticulture on pinions, so exact numbers on dormant hours are not available, or anything else about them for that matter.

 

[ShadyStump]

Just thought of this: @hemmy, what are your winter nighttime lows like?
Anything 40ish F and under should hold a pinion in dormancy, especially if you find the coolest shadiest spot in the yard. Then all you'd have to worry about is how to get it to sleep to start with.
Humidity may make certain fungal and pest issues challenging, but you have wiggle room there.

 

[hemmy]

Just thought of this: @hemmy, what are your winter nighttime lows like?
Anything 40ish F and under should hold a pinion in dormancy, especially if you find the coolest shadiest spot in the yard. Then all you'd have to worry about is how to get it to sleep to start with.
Humidity may make certain fungal and pest issues challenging, but you have wiggle room there.

Technically we are USDA zone 10a, 30-35F. But we haven’t seen a frost or light freeze for 10 years. My observed lows for the last several years are 40-45F in winter. Amazingly, we have japanese maple in the landscape and I’ve had JM pre-bonsai for 5 years.

Using the “Utah Model” for chill hours (partial hour credits for temps below 55F), we have had 800-900 chill hours for each of the last several years.

The closest native P. monophylla is ~30 miles north at ~3000ft in the Los Padres forest, where they get freezing winter low temps.

 

[ShadyStump]

Well you're certainly well ahead of me in bonsai.
I believe that one of your (more) local monophylla should adapt rather decently. I suggest hunting for a cool, dry, shady microclimate in your yard for winter keeping, remembering that dormancy is triggered not only by temperature thresholds, but also daylight hours and intensity. A solid combination of the three should be enough. They absolutely still need sun during the winter, though, so anything indoors is out. Do some research on temps in a town near where you know them to be native, and see if you can reasonably replicate it.

 

[hemmy]

Well you're certainly well ahead of me in bonsai.

It’s just too bad my trees aren’t!

 

[ShadyStump]

With some luck, maybe this fall you'll have a nice yamadori piñon to help catch you up.

 

[Orange County]

Does anyone know of or have experience growing Pinyon Pine, either single or two needle species (Pinus monophylla or Pinus edulis), in Southern California? I know there is a P. edulis in the collection at the GSBF collection at the Huntington. My site search only turned up one thread with a collected one in CA by @Housguy. Maybe they can give us an update. I am particularly interested to know if they can grow in our coastal zone since we have slightly warmer winter lows than in Pasadena. I also think I saw one at the 8:07 mark of the Baikoen Bonsai Youtube series of Tom Vuong's garden.

P. monophylla appears to have a native range that includes the coastal portions of the Transverse Ranges in Southern California, but it looks to be limited to Zones 7-8 with lows below freezing.

Also has anyone found them in a Southern or Central California nursery?

Thank you!

Hello
I just collected a Pinyon pine a month ago in White Mountain , my friends told me it won't survive but the tree is still ok. I saw the video of Baikoen bonsai (8:07), that tree is Lodgepole pine ( I also collected three last month )
I will let you know next spring how is doing.
Isamu

 

[ShadyStump]

Hello
I just collected a Pinyon pine a month ago in White Mountain , my friends told me it won't survive but the tree is still ok. I saw the video of Baikoen bonsai (8:07), that tree is Lodgepole pine ( I also collected three last month )
I will let you know next spring how is doing.
Isamu

What I've learned about piñons, and pines in general- is they're sort of the cactus of the tree word, only they store carbon in stead of water. It could be dying, but you won't be able to tell for months, especially over winter when the tree goes dormant. I'll know how my latest 2 are doing by June for example.

I'm switching my tactics I think to early spring collections, just so I don't have to wait so long to find out what I did wrong.

@Colorado and, if I recall right, @Hartinez posted a little while ago about their new successes collecting piñions in NM. My take away from that thread was just don't mess with the roots, and keep it in as much native soil as you possibly can. It's all or nothing with these things. They hate moving.

 

[Hartinez]

Hello
I just collected a Pinyon pine a month ago in White Mountain , my friends told me it won't survive but the tree is still ok. I saw the video of Baikoen bonsai (8:07), that tree is Lodgepole pine ( I also collected three last month )
I will let you know next spring how is doing.
Isamu

I think what made our collections successful was the soil they were growing in. Composted needle duff mixed with compacted clay soil. Allowed for the rootball to stay intact. All of my piñon failures have been when the rootball is not stable enough to last the collection intact. Heat at the roots would also help as I’ve seen other collectors have success in that respect.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

What I've learned about piñons, and pines in general- is they're sort of the cactus of the tree word, only they store carbon in stead of water. It could be dying, but you won't be able to tell for months, especially over winter when the tree goes dormant. I'll know how my latest 2 are doing by June for example.

I'm switching my tactics I think to early spring collections, just so I don't have to wait so long to find out what I did wrong.

@Colorado and, if I recall right, @Hartinez posted a little while ago about their new successes collecting piñions in NM. My take away from that thread was just don't mess with the roots, and keep it in as much native soil as you possibly can. It's all or nothing with these things. They hate moving.

Totally right, the pine can be already dead but aparently in perfect state and only show it after months, so its very difficult to trace the real cause and time of events in sort of a "tree-authopsy" xD

 

[Housguy]

I recently lost my lodgepole pine, had it since 2014 and it has been growing steadily since then, but took a turn for the worst in the past summer here in southern california. I think the heat zapped it this time, bummer!! Won't be collecting those anymore, I believe the climate in southern california is too much for them unfortunately. Only Utah junipers from this point on for me.

 

[ShadyStump]

I recently lost my lodgepole pine, had it since 2014 and it has been growing steadily since then, but took a turn for the worst in the past summer here in southern california. I think the heat zapped it this time, bummer!! Won't be collecting those anymore, I believe the climate in southern california is too much for them unfortunately. Only Utah junipers from this point on for me.

Allot of one seed junipers here (that I mistakenly though were Utahs until I learned the difference in range and reproduction). I haven't tried any yet, but couldn't tell you why. It just hasn't happened. I think I will dig some come spring, as well as give spring pinons a try.