Brazilian Rain Tree Help!!

[Bonsaikev1985]

So the BRT seems to be one of the favorites in bonsai. I actually have 3 myself. Both about 2ft each that I got late last summer. They were trimmed and worked on when I got them. They looked amazing and still do, but this spring they have over grown. So since this is a favored tree why can't I ever find to much info on them? Seen A video on YouTube and and that basically it. I want to know more about pruning and styling them. How to defoliate, wiring, maintenance, and even all around care. I do know about die back when comes to pruning, but that's it. If anyone has some good links to all around care for BRTs that be great. Trying to find more detailed info. THANKS!!

 

[c54fun]

There is not a ton of info on them. Its great for the tree to let it grow out now and again. Mine likes lots of water and fertilizer. When it gets hot I stop the fertilizer. Winter here in Texas I have it in a 60 degree greenhouse. Before I had the green house it was inside next to a big window for the winter. Most people use clip and grow to shape it. You can also wire it. Wire cuts in super fast but the marks go away with time. Real pain to wire due to thorns and super fragile leafs and stems. Bark is also fragile. I personally don't defoliate.

 

[Lobaeux]

C54fun has the right of it. There's not a whole lot out there. Google Adam Lavigne's blog, he's done some posts about BRTs.
They do grow rather quickly and like lots of water. I water mine at least once per day.
I defoliated mine, usually twice per year, but that's just me. You can cut the thorns off.
Post pics!

 

[Bonsaikev1985]

There is not a ton of info on them. Its great for the tree to let it grow out now and again. Mine likes lots of water and fertilizer. When it gets hot I stop the fertilizer. Winter here in Texas I have it in a 60 degree greenhouse. Before I had the green house it was inside next to a big window for the winter. Most people use clip and grow to shape it. You can also wire it. Wire cuts in super fast but the marks go away with time. Real pain to wire due to thorns and super fragile leafs and stems. Bark is also fragile. I personally don't defoliate.

So when yoy say they love lots of fertilizer how often do you fert? I been just giving them the basic fert care of my other trees. Every 2 weeks with a balanced fert (20-20-20). Not to new at Bonsai but BRT yes..... Any pointers on defoliation since you have done it?!? That be a big help, because that's my goal for one of them. 2 of my trees came from one place and shipped from a short distant personally. The guy told me they may lose a lot of there leaves because they're sensitive to light changes. So from a green house to my "indoor grow room" which I made out of a spare room in the winter they went. Which worked great all winter for all my Tropicals. Well those trees had no sign of stress and were fine. Well got the 3rd one about a month later.. when it arrived it was lush and healthy, in weeks it lost almost all leaves. But soon after they all grew back way smaller in size like it's suppose too. Fitting the tree way way better for the size it is!! Looks awesome and that's what I want to do with the other 2. Defoliate to better fit the trees size. When's a good time? How would you do it the least stressful? I know other trees are better done in mid summer. Any help be great since you have experience. Thanks a lot and sorry for lone post lol

 

[Bonsaikev1985]

C54fun has the right of it. There's not a whole lot out there. Google Adam Lavigne's blog, he's done some posts about BRTs.
They do grow rather quickly and like lots of water. I water mine at least once per day.
I defoliated mine, usually twice per year, but that's just me. You can cut the thorns off.
Post pics!

Yeah when you said Adams blog I looked back at my post and thought I put that in there. Yeah he had 1 post where I seen of a semi cascading tree where he defoliated it and then showed updated results. But never any actually real detail on how, where, or when.. so continued to search and came across a good video on YouTube from Orlando Bonsai which had some good and most detailed info I could find on them so far. But he didn't cover everything so been scratching my head on some more answers. Just curious, why no real info on them? I can find more info on how to make a pepper plant into a bonsai then a BRT ha ha ha!! Thanks for some answer!!

 

[Bonsaikev1985]

Where did you guys find your info? Sure you guys did some research before taking that step of defoliating? Or was it just trial and error. Thanks agin

 

[c54fun]

For info I looked up brazilian raintree bonsai care and got the basic info then learned over the past years. Cant help you on defoliation. I don't do it. I used chemical fertilizer for the past few years and this year I am using organic. I don't fertilize when it gets real hot and not much in the winter. Early spring I start fertilizing a few piles and keep increasing the piles of fert. When the heat of summer gets here I will scrape off the top layer of soil and replace it with sphagnum moss to help keep the water in.

 

[Bonsaikev1985]

Have ya seen any better results on fert since switch to Organic? And why you switch? Was thinking about doing that with all my trees. Still researching and haven't made my mind up yet

 

[Lobaeux]

Honestly, most of what I've learned about BRT has been from this site and from studying the tree itself.

As far as defoliating goes, I've defoliated mine just like any other tree. Here in South Florida things grow quickly. On my next batch of days off I'm going to defoliate my BRT, the Premna and my Bald Cypress. I just finished thinning out my Fukien Tea.

As far as fertilizer goes, I've got quite a few lizards that hang out around my place, so I don't use organic often. The iguanas dig through the soil for it, so I use osmocote and liquid fertilizer. I typically use liquid every week as part of my watering schedule on the Brazilian, the Bald Cypress, the Bougie and the Premna. Every other week on the Fukien. I haven't noticed any detriment, so I keep doing it. I have a rather large (large for my collection) Brazilian in the ground that I just tossed some osmocote around. It seems to like it.

 

[choppychoppy]

Yeah when you said Adams blog I looked back at my post and thought I put that in there. Yeah he had 1 post where I seen of a semi cascading tree where he defoliated it and then showed updated results. But never any actually real detail on how, where, or when.. so continued to search and came across a good video on YouTube from Orlando Bonsai which had some good and most detailed info I could find on them so far. But he didn't cover everything so been scratching my head on some more answers. Just curious, why no real info on them? I can find more info on how to make a pepper plant into a bonsai then a BRT ha ha ha!! Thanks for some answer!!

For info I looked up brazilian raintree bonsai care and got the basic info then learned over the past years. Cant help you on defoliation. I don't do it. I used chemical fertilizer for the past few years and this year I am using organic. I don't fertilize when it gets real hot and not much in the winter. Early spring I start fertilizing a few piles and keep increasing the piles of fert. When the heat of summer gets here I will scrape off the top layer of soil and replace it with sphagnum moss to help keep the water in.

Honestly, most of what I've learned about BRT has been from this site and from studying the tree itself.

As far as defoliating goes, I've defoliated mine just like any other tree. Here in South Florida things grow quickly. On my next batch of days off I'm going to defoliate my BRT, the Premna and my Bald Cypress. I just finished thinning out my Fukien Tea.

As far as fertilizer goes, I've got quite a few lizards that hang out around my place, so I don't use organic often. The iguanas dig through the soil for it, so I use osmocote and liquid fertilizer. I typically use liquid every week as part of my watering schedule on the Brazilian, the Bald Cypress, the Bougie and the Premna. Every other week on the Fukien. I haven't noticed any detriment, so I keep doing it. I have a rather large (large for my collection) Brazilian in the ground that I just tossed some osmocote around. It seems to like it.

So some recent advice from Boon and Juan and other masters at the ABS/BSF convention this weekend.


So - just a bit about defoliating trees that are being developed. I just spent the last 4 days at the BSF/ABS convention took 4 workshops and spent hours watching demos and listening to talks. Both Juan Andrade and Boon in several demos and workshops must have said dozens of times NOT to defoliate trees that you are developing. They need to be allowed to grow and defoliating is a huge stressor for the tree. I realize that Adam and Eric both defoliate trees on occasion and many of you guys use this as a guide for your own trees however you will note especially on the trees you see Eric doing - those trees are extremely developed and are well ramified and very well established. Pinching and defoliating are the very last stages of Bonsai development not the earliest.

Also @Lobaeux - not trying to put you on the spot in a harsh way but specifically for a BRT other than - 'I've seen it on Adam/Eric's blog' and 'When I've done it before it grew back' can you list some horticultural or other Bonsai related reasons for defoliating a BRT. There were some BRTs in the exhibit and during Boons critique/workshop Sat morning he took about 15 of us thru the exhibit for 2hrs before it was open and spoke about each and every tree in detail - he spoke about them obviously.

 

[LanceMac10]

Should I defoliate?

 

[Bonsaikev1985]

See the picture above^^^ My one is bigger then that and my other 2 are about the same size. They are at the size I want them. No bigger.

 

[choppychoppy]

Should I defoliate?
View attachment 147622

No - again - ask yourself - why am I defoliating? What you should be doing instead is cutting the tree back - and only beging the cutting back process on branches that have thickened sufficently. In the tree above I can see alot of heavy branching in the upper reaches of the tree and thin branches lower. The top then needs to be cut back and the bottom and middle left to grow and develop. This happens while keeping the top cut back - the top will develop quickly when it is time to do so. If you have branches that are thickened to where they need to be then cut them back creating smooth transitions and smoothing cuts with a knife.

 

[LanceMac10]

See the picture above^^^ My one is bigger then that and my other 2 are about the same size. They are at the size I want them. No bigger.

 

[LanceMac10]

No - again - ask yourself - why am I defoliating? What you should be doing instead is cutting the tree back - and only beging the cutting back process on branches that have thickened sufficently. In the tree above I can see alot of heavy branching in the upper reaches of the tree and thin branches lower. The top then needs to be cut back and the bottom and middle left to grow and develop. This happens while keeping the top cut back - the top will develop quickly when it is time to do so. If you have branches that are thickened to where they need to be then cut them back creating smooth transitions and smoothing cuts with a knife.

Just trollin' a little!!! Heheheee.........I need trunk, and here on the ranch, rampant runnin' roots puts caliper on the trunk. I won't do anything to this but walk some scissors by...
But remember, I in NH.......

 

[Bonsaikev1985]

Lol no I swear ha ha!! I was just using ya picture as an example. It's to dark out back to take a picture right now of them. But when I see the post about "develope them first" I'm was hmm.. how can I compare my tree size. And seen you picture and was like perfect!! My tree where bought from a friend of mine at a bonsai nursery and he grew them from cuttings for many years. He decided at what point he wanted to develope, threw in final nice pots, then he developed them over the years. I bought them a year ago and I'm just trying to maintain them like he did. There over growing. Also the other 2 weren't ever developed but the trunk size and height are ideal for what I'm looking to do

 

[Lobaeux]

@choppychoppy great questions. The defoliation of a Brazilian, I think is based on what you're trying to accomplish with the tree. The Brazilian I have is not developed in the sense of a trunk, but is quite developed in the canopy. Defoliation for me hasn't reduced the size of the leaves, which is usually the reason for defoliation but is to allow the ease in wiring the branches. It also allows me to see the branch structure much better and cut off all those pesky thorns. In South Florida, my Brazilian's foliage have grown back very quickly, other areas of the country may experience less rapid growth.

Defoliating legumes is not an issue either I feel. I don't have a degree in horticulture, but I google really well. I've found a couple of papers supporting the defoliation of legume trees for agricultural uses.

But, I'm not an expert, nor anything much more than a noob. I do what works best for me, and for the potted Brazilian I have, the experience of pruning and defoliating has taught me what these trees can withstand.

 

[LanceMac10]

You Florida guys.....I love you!!!!!

 

[Lobaeux]

You Florida guys.....I love you!!!!!

It's great living in Florida..... until that hurricane comes and I'm running away trying to hold on to all my trees!

 

[LanceMac10]

I was only playing @choppychoppy Don't take offence, please!