Blue Atlas Cedar next steps.

[Mike132327]

I recently purchased this Blue Atlas Cedar. It was buried in among a few other cedars. This one had the most movement in the trunk and very full branches with low growth. All of the grafts looked about the same so I went with this one for the other features. I am making this post for advice on long term development of this tree.

I like the size of the tree currently (41” tall, 2” girth just above graft). I think I would like this to be about the finished height of the tree I would like to get the trunk in proportion with the height. I would like this to present as a big powerful tree like you would see in the mountains. I am hoping the graft area swells like I have seen on many other BAC as I’d prefer that over the inverse taper I have now. If it doesn’t I might try to just bury or ground layer it.

Should I trim the apical leaders back to new shoots post flush this spring? I am assuming that not cutting the tree back hard will help nutrition be balanced and help grow the trunk and increase back budding.

I have space to plant it in the ground which from my research is the consensus as the quickest way to increase trunk diameter as a general statement. However I have read that BAC don’t love having their roots worked on. Would ground planting make its eventual move back to a container a riskier maneuver?

I am not opposed to building a grow box where I can get it out of the ground every few years without disturbing the roots too much. Would this yield better results than continued up potting?

I plan to keep it in nutrient rich organic soil with a few amendments for drainage, and feeding it throughout the season while I am growing the trunk. I would guess this is an 8-10 year project to get it to start looking like what I see in my head. I am not in a rush to get this in a bonsai pot. I would prefer the best quality tree I can muster here however long it takes.

I know there were a ton of questions here and I hope I have given enough info on the tree, and my goal. What would be the next steps you’d take to start this tree on its journey?

 

[WNC Bonsai]

That looks like a pretty good graft with only a small amount of reverse taper—let’s hope the root stock catches up with the grafted part. The potential issue with ground growing this is they reportedly are difficult to transplant once they are in the ground and develop a decent set of roots. Have you wated the assortment of YouTibe videos on these? Corin at Greenwood Bonsai has done several, plus there are one or two others showing work. In addition Madam Bonsai has done a few. She as well as some others tend to be very aggressive in their approach so flip a coin and see which works for you.

 

[Mike132327]

That looks like a pretty good graft with only a small amount of reverse taper—let’s hope the root stock catches up with the grafted part. The potential issue with ground growing this is they reportedly are difficult to transplant once they are in the ground and develop a decent set of roots. Have you wated the assortment of YouTibe videos on these? Corin at Greenwood Bonsai has done several, plus there are one or two others showing work. In addition Madam Bonsai has done a few. She as well as some others tend to be very aggressive in their approach so flip a coin and see which works for you.

I have ran the YouTube gauntlet Corins videos were quite good. I am also half way through the Mirai live on a piece of nursery stock Ryan was working with. Other than Mirai everyone seems to cut them down a bit and keep them on the shorter end at least for the videos I have seen.

From my understanding they back bud well but not on older wood, but are quite vigorous in terms of needle production. With how young this tree is there’s really not much old wood so I’m hoping some good opportunities present themselves. It seems like the clip and grow method should be able to work for this. I was just not sure how much of an impact it would have on the truck thickening up.

I have also heard they are tough to layer. It will probably just be a deeper pot if the graft doesn’t catch up. I haven’t gotten deeper in there to see how long that section is but nothing a deeper pot couldn’t solve I suppose.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

The only one who has reported much success air layering them is Nilly’s Bonsai. He says it takes a couple of years and is at best a 50:50 proposition so don’t count on it. Eastern Leaf has a couple of videos showing how to wire them for more movement. As you can see from my post I opted to bend mine into a cascade instead of lopping off the top as Corin does. I also have decided not to count on back budding and instead develop what I have so I haven’t cut much off. At this point I think the main thing is to remove bar branches and reduce whorls, wire the branches, and keep it growing to increase girth and foliage.

Thread 'Bending my Blue Atlas Cedar'

Aug 28, 2024

After almost a year of reading, planning, and getting materials ready, I decided to take the plunge and put a big bend in my BAC that I picked up last Oct. I decided to use a hybrid method based on the established practice of applying raffia and wire. However I also added a trick employed by David of the Bonsai Worx YouTube channel—I’ll include a link below. He basically doesn’t use raffia and instead uses about 3 strands of 6 mil aluminum wire instead of copper. He then pulls the tree or branch into place using copper guy wires. They feel the flexibility of the aluminum along with the...

• WNC Bonsai
• Replies: 20
• Forum: Other Conifers

• 
• 

 

[Mike132327]

The only one who has reported much success air layering them is Nilly’s Bonsai. He says it takes a couple of years and is at best a 50:50 proposition so don’t count on it. Eastern Leaf has a couple of videos showing how to wire them for more movement. As you can see from my post I opted to bend mine into a cascade instead of lopping off the top as Corin does. I also have decided not to count on back budding and instead develop what I have so I haven’t cut much off. At this point I think the main thing is to remove bar branches and reduce whorls, wire the branches, and keep it growing to increase girth and foliage.

Thread 'Bending my Blue Atlas Cedar'

Aug 28, 2024

After almost a year of reading, planning, and getting materials ready, I decided to take the plunge and put a big bend in my BAC that I picked up last Oct. I decided to use a hybrid method based on the established practice of applying raffia and wire. However I also added a trick employed by David of the Bonsai Worx YouTube channel—I’ll include a link below. He basically doesn’t use raffia and instead uses about 3 strands of 6 mil aluminum wire instead of copper. He then pulls the tree or branch into place using copper guy wires. They feel the flexibility of the aluminum along with the...

• WNC Bonsai
• Replies: 20
• Forum: Other Conifers

• 
• 

I really love a good cascade and have seen some really great ones from blue cedars. If you have a pic of yours I’d love to see it!

The ground layer sounds out of the question I’m not really sweating it. It’s got a good few years of growing to do.

Do you have yours in standard bonsai soil 1/3-1/3-1/3? I’ve seen people do some organic matter in their mix as well for more water retention.

 

[Shibui]

Ground growing is usually the quickest way to increase trunk diameter however it does have drawbacks and they can be much more severe drawbacks with conifers. IMHO, root reduction is the least of the problems you are likely to have if this is planted in the ground.
Ground won't increase trunk diameter per se. It's the extra growth that does the job. With deciduous we can chop back and be sure of new shoots. That may not work always with conifers so we need to continue to prune while ground growing which also reduces trunk thickening.
Most conifers take a few years to settle in. You may not see any appreciable growth for 2-3 years.
When something goes wrong, it can go wrong in a big way while ground growing. While growing in a container, growth may be reduced but problems don't tend to get out of hand.

Another way to 'thicken' the trunk is to reduce height. Obviously reducing height does not actually thicken the trunk but the change of perspective makes the existing trunk appear much more impressive.
Your tree currently has almost no taper in a long, thin trunk. Taper is one of the key features that make trunks appear older and impressive. Please consider chopping the trunk back to one of the side branches to alleviate both those factors. Cedars can look good where dead wood - jin and/or shari - is used in conjunction with a trunk reduction.

If you still want to grow it on, I'd go with an above ground grow box for control while allowing some growth.
Organic or inorganic soil should not make much difference to growth rates provided you can water and fertilise to suit the tree , soil and pot size.
Any trimming removes potential food factory and therefore reduces potential for growth but it is important to manage growth of conifers. Too much growth up to and the lower branches could deteriorate or even die so it is important to manage new growth each year. Not sure if there's a best trimming regime each year. Sometimes we need to cut harder to promote important lower branching, other times letting it grow is OK.

 

[Mike132327]

Ground growing is usually the quickest way to increase trunk diameter however it does have drawbacks and they can be much more severe drawbacks with conifers. IMHO, root reduction is the least of the problems you are likely to have if this is planted in the ground.
Ground won't increase trunk diameter per se. It's the extra growth that does the job. With deciduous we can chop back and be sure of new shoots. That may not work always with conifers so we need to continue to prune while ground growing which also reduces trunk thickening.
Most conifers take a few years to settle in. You may not see any appreciable growth for 2-3 years.
When something goes wrong, it can go wrong in a big way while ground growing. While growing in a container, growth may be reduced but problems don't tend to get out of hand.

Another way to 'thicken' the trunk is to reduce height. Obviously reducing height does not actually thicken the trunk but the change of perspective makes the existing trunk appear much more impressive.
Your tree currently has almost no taper in a long, thin trunk. Taper is one of the key features that make trunks appear older and impressive. Please consider chopping the trunk back to one of the side branches to alleviate both those factors. Cedars can look good where dead wood - jin and/or shari - is used in conjunction with a trunk reduction.

If you still want to grow it on, I'd go with an above ground grow box for control while allowing some growth.
Organic or inorganic soil should not make much difference to growth rates provided you can water and fertilise to suit the tree , soil and pot size.
Any trimming removes potential food factory and therefore reduces potential for growth but it is important to manage growth of conifers. Too much growth up to and the lower branches could deteriorate or even die so it is important to manage new growth each year. Not sure if there's a best trimming regime each year. Sometimes we need to cut harder to promote important lower branching, other times letting it grow is OK.

Thank you for this very helpful info. I definitely agree the tree would benefit greatly from additional taper. I will look at some new potential leaders and consider my options. I think I will make a big cut next year. I do plan to let it grow pretty hard for a few years as it is so young I think i can take advantage of its quicker growth. I will watch it as it grows and prune as needed to balance.

The first thing the tree actually needs is a repot. The roots have filled the container and percolation is slow. I was planning to up pot it and try to clip a few bigger roots. I am planning to wait until buds open and growth begins, and transplant it within the week.

My initial thought for a big cut is here, there are some strong branches that could be a good new leader. Above this line the trunk straightens out so I could also get some more movement in the upper canopy. I’ll assess after the season and how it bounces back from the repot.

 

[NashsMan]

The only one who has reported much success air layering them is Nilly’s Bonsai. He says it takes a couple of years and is at best a 50:50 proposition so don’t count on it.

I agree regarding air layering BAC. After several tries on my landscape tree, I finally succeeded but it took 2 years from start to severance.

 

[Mike132327]

I agree regarding air layering BAC. After several tries on my landscape tree, I finally succeeded but it took 2 years from start to severance.

Still pretty cool you managed to get one to take. As long as there’s not like 4 more inches of trunk hidden down there I can hide the base as is, if it doesn’t improve. Hopefully one of the other options pans out.

 

[jevanlewis]

If you are able, please consider purchasing a BAC seedling or two, not as a replacement of the one you already have, but to work on alongside it. You mentioned you are in this for the long haul, and so it would be a fun exercise to develop a larger tree with challenges (graft, lack of taper) alongside one that doesn't have these challenges but of course is much smaller. I would be interesting to compare the outcome of both in ~10 years.

I just purchased two BAC seedlings from here:
The Jonsteen Company

One thing to note about the seedlings is that they are the standard BAC and so they don't have the bluish color that the popular 'Glauca' version has.

 

[Mike132327]

If you are able, please consider purchasing a BAC seedling or two, not as a replacement of the one you already have, but to work on alongside it. You mentioned you are in this for the long haul, and so it would be a fun exercise to develop a larger tree with challenges (graft, lack of taper) alongside one that doesn't have these challenges but of course is much smaller. I would be interesting to compare the outcome of both in ~10 years.

I just purchased two BAC seedlings from here:
The Jonsteen Company

One thing to note about the seedlings is that they are the standard BAC and so they don't have the bluish color that the popular 'Glauca' version has.

I love the idea of getting a few seedlings and running an experiment on nursery stock vs raised for bonsai material.
I think it could be more interesting if I had one seedling grow in a container the same way I will for this nursery stock. Then have one straight in the ground, and one in a grow box with open slots on the bottom.
I think this would give a pretty good comparison on differences between the methods.

Once it gets a little consistently warmer here I will get a few seedlings and get everyone going this year.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Be aware that the seedlings will likely be the natural green and not the blue variety so you will not have a direct comparison. The blue Atlas cedars are often grafted onto either deodar or the green root stock. It is not clear to me from numerous internet searches whether the blue variety is naturally occurring or a cultivar that was discovered by accident and widely distributed by horticulturalist. At any rate I have never found an ungrafted BAC in any of the nurseries I have visited although the Mirai website says they exist. If anyone knows of a nursery that sells them let me know me know!

 

[Mike132327]

Be aware that the seedlings will likely be the natural green and not the blue variety so you will not have a direct comparison. The blue Atlas cedars are often grafted onto either deodar or the green root stock. It is not clear to me from numerous internet searches whether the blue variety is naturally occurring or a cultivar that was discovered by accident and widely distributed by horticulturalist. At any rate I have never found an ungrafted BAC in any of the nurseries I have visited although the Mirai website says they exist. If anyone knows of a nursery that sells them let me know me know!

That’ll throw a wrench in the plan. I’ll have to do some hunting. I’ve seen people selling seeds claiming they are blue atlas cedars. Could be a really long term project.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

That’ll throw a wrench in the plan. I’ll have to do some hunting. I’ve seen people selling seeds claiming they are blue atlas cedars. Could be a really long term project.

If it is a cultivar and not a true species, Then even if you collect seeds from a blue tree the seedlings would likely revert to the natural green variety. Hopefully someone has done enough research on the subject of the blue variety to provide a definitive answer on this. Do you have any info on this @Eric Schrader ?

 

[jevanlewis]

Be aware that the seedlings will likely be the natural green and not the blue variety so you will not have a direct comparison. The blue Atlas cedars are often grafted onto either deodar or the green root stock. It is not clear to me from numerous internet searches whether the blue variety is naturally occurring or a cultivar that was discovered by accident and widely distributed by horticulturalist. At any rate I have never found an ungrafted BAC in any of the nurseries I have visited although the Mirai website says they exist. If anyone knows of a nursery that sells them let me know me know!

Great point on the lack of direct comparion. I, too, would love to have some BAC from seed. If I were younger, I would acquire several (grafted) BAC and harvest seeds (this is assuming that the seedlings would retain the qualities of the BAC and not revert to the qualities of the standard green version). However, if BAC are anything like Cedrus libani, the trees can take up to 30 years before they product any seed-bearing cones, and so I can understand the reason for the lack of supply.

 

[Mike132327]

If it is a cultivar and not a true species, Then even if you collect seeds from a blue tree the seedlings would likely revert to the natural green variety. Hopefully someone has done enough research on the subject of the blue variety to provide a definitive answer on this. Do you have any info on this @Eric Schrader ?

Great point on the lack of direct comparion. I, too, would love to have some BAC from seed. If I were younger, I would acquire several (grafted) BAC and harvest seeds (this is assuming that the seedlings would retain the qualities of the BAC and not revert to the qualities of the standard green version). However, if BAC are anything like Cedrus libani, the trees can take up to 30 years before they product any seed-bearing cones, and so I can understand the reason for the lack of supply.

A few different references on google says they can be propagated via cuttings and seeds with decent success, and air layering as mentioned is very difficult but not impossible. I will definitely be trying to root some cuttings this season. We’ll see if that brings any successes. It will definitely be easier and faster than seed if I can get a few to take.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Yes, one of my neighbors has a BAC that is at least 30’ a d probably is about 30 years old. In spite of the fact it produces male cones I have never seen a female cone on it, and I jave looked and looked!

 

[Shibui]

My initial thought for a big cut is here, there are some strong branches that could be a good new leader. Above this line the trunk straightens out so I could also get some more movement in the upper canopy. I’ll assess after the season and how it bounces back from the repot.

That cut is still a long way up the trunk. Granted it will reduce the height a bit but most beginners don't seem to recognise that trees grow up and out after a chop. If you cut way up there and then grow a new apex, the new apex will probably end up somewhere near the current top. You will have some taper up top but won't have reduced the height much, if at all. I usually plan a first chop somewhere around 1/3 of planned height of tree.
With conifers we sometimes use dead wood as the top of the tree and grow branches that hang down. Your proposed chop might be OK if that's the style you are planning.

 

[NashsMan]

Yes, one of my neighbors has a BAC that is at least 30’ a d probably is about 30 years old. In spite of the fact it produces male cones I have never seen a female cone on it, and I jave looked and looked!

I have 2 weeping BAC at the front of our yard to provide screening from the street.

One was planted 32 years ago and stretches about 30 feet across the yard: It has never produced a cone.
The other one was planted 12 years ago and it extends about 15 feet. It has produced maybe 10 tiny cones in the last 2 years.

 

[TomP]

I have a blue atlas in the landscape as well as a blue atlas on its own roots that I bought at Plant City Bonsai in 2020. It is becoming one of my favorite trees. The major issue with buying larger stock is that they are bad to snap without warning when bending. So be careful I have tried to propagate with only slight success. I have taken cuttings several times of the year and finally had a (very minor) succes when I got one to take--to be fair I have about a 2% success rate. I purchased an aeropropagator this winters and have a dozen cuttings in there that still look good after five weeks

Below is what it looked like when I first bought it and


And here it is today