wireme
Masterpiece
I set the stage for developing this one today, decided to try something different with it. Lower left branch will be grown out to have its own tree vertically growing from the horizontal branch.
black spruce competing leader theme
- Thread starter wireme
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wireme
Masterpiece
main leader will be reduced also in time.
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
First thing I'd do is get rid of all that other crud in the pot. It is competing for nutrients -- at least -- and it doesn't allow a full look at the tree so you can really plan its future. I don't know how you can even work on it.
Then start considering which of those lower branches want to become SHORT jin.
The rest will come in time.
Then start considering which of those lower branches want to become SHORT jin.
The rest will come in time.
wireme
Masterpiece
The competing leader was made from a branchlet of the main lower branch, that dictated the distance from the trunk. When I had the idea to develop it vertically I had the same thought, too distant from the trunk, it is a ways out there! After pulling it up and looking at it I decided to embrace the oddity, strange as it is, it speaks to me, reminding me of some odd forest trees that make anyone seeing them stop and comment. Most trees in the forest go unnoticed but every now and then something growing like this is come across and even people not so into trees stop and take notice. I am optimistic for the future of this.
wireme
Masterpiece
I collected a handful of these three years ago, they come from northern muskeg bogs and were collected by cutting a circle and underneath with a pruning saw. No soil has been added they are purely growing in the original balls of sphagnum along with the other crud. This one is just showing first signs of recovery but a couple others have exploded with growth this year, very happy and vigourous. Left alone in the moss with the crud I expect this one to do the same next season and start to develop quickly. I"m not sure how and in what I will pot it in the end but for now I want to play with a nice healthy tree and I think leaving it be in the moss and crud is the way to do that.
Anyways I like the crud, edible and medicinal plants that are quite rare to my area, I enjoy having it in pots here, made a nice pot of labrador tea the day I played with the tree and the lingan berries are almost ripe.
I will be repotting another of these soon, it will give me a chance to see how I can transition them to bonsai soil if I chose to.
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
Your choice -- if not the tree's. Its life in a pot is VASTLY different from its life in the bog where its roots could run long distances and away from such competition.
What it boils down to (other than tree health) is that you cannot develop it as a "bonsai" without being able to see what you have. But again . . . your choice.
fourteener
Omono
90 degree angles look very man-made and artificial. The top you already have on this tree is the demonstration of what it should look like. I think heading away from the very nice deadwood/new top that has been done by mother nature(exceptionally well I might add) for 2 90 degree angles takes this tree from very natural to very contrived and artificial. As for your medicinal plants, I'd put them in another pot.
ghues
Omono
Hey Wireme,
I think I know where you are coming from (or going to) with that option -I've spent 41 years working in the forests of coastal BC and I have seen many examples of trees with some really weird and unusual branch configurations and the majority do not have such an abrupt angle - perhaps you can put some movement in it to bring it closer to the trunk and still giving the allusion you are looking for.........here are a couple of photos of trees in nature.
The crud is something I enjoy getting from the yamadori I collect - over time they make some great accent or companion plants which I generally remove over time as I'm sure is your idea down the road.
Cheers
G.
I think I know where you are coming from (or going to) with that option -I've spent 41 years working in the forests of coastal BC and I have seen many examples of trees with some really weird and unusual branch configurations and the majority do not have such an abrupt angle - perhaps you can put some movement in it to bring it closer to the trunk and still giving the allusion you are looking for.........here are a couple of photos of trees in nature.
The crud is something I enjoy getting from the yamadori I collect - over time they make some great accent or companion plants which I generally remove over time as I'm sure is your idea down the road.
Cheers
G.
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wireme
Masterpiece
Thanks everyone, I'm liking the replies! It looks like I'm going against the grain with this one, in more ways than one.
Graham, like you I have a long history of bush work in the forest and wilderness, 20+ years of silviculture and related and wilderness adventure tourism, great tree pics, inspiring, the Doug Fir is classic old growth, not exactly example of what I'm after here. I see different things happen when branches decide to take a shot at being leaders. Often it follows damage to the crown which is evident in my spruce. Often the existing branch tips start to grow upwards and curve skywards. Sometimes interior small growth somewhere along the branch length takes off and thats when you get the sharp angles, 90 deg or similar depending on the angle of the branch to begin with.
A related example can be seen along riverbanks, I've spent lots of time on wilderness rivers, recreationally whitewater canoeing and kayaking and professionally as a whitewater guide. Often trees are undermined on one side by river erosion and begin to lean over the water, we call them sweepers, get too close and you can sweep your clients right out of the boat into the river, always good for a laugh eh? Anyways usually the tips grow back upwards in a nice curve but sometimes a branch somewhere along the trunk takes over instead, again, sharp angle and the tip withers and dies. One larch tree I remember on a river we ran almost daily was like this. It fell over and stopped fully horizontal to the river at the top of the bank. A branch midsection grew straight as an arrow into a nice small tree. There were many of these trees along that stretch of river, frequently being eroded away and falling in but it was that one unusual larch with the sharp bend that was noticed by clients and guides, after high water events or big winds we'd ask ourselves, has that cool tree fallen in yet? It did 2 years ago. Anyways thats the look I'm after, quite specific. It absolutely needs a 90 degree or similar angle straight up from the branch to look the way I hope it will someday. If it looks unnatural to many, fine, to me it wont because I know it is directly modelled after natural trees I have seen and admired.
As for the other plants, maybe the trees would grow much better without them, I don't know, never grown trees in balls of moss before. Ive been watching them recover over the last three years, in the swamp they had yearly growth rates of 1/2" to 1", a couple of the more recovered ones had leader growth of 8" this year. Life in a pot is proving to be different, VASTLY better... so far.., ah, anyways I'll think about plucking some, I do have plenty of trees in traditional soils with little to no company. The base is hidden by moss certainly and is an unknown factor, these things slowly layer up the trunk as the muskeg grows deeper around them, surface roots may be a ways down there. I can say that as soon as the moss is peeled away it exposes trunk without the cool old bark as its been eaten away by moss. I may have to layer it in the end, a problem for later.
A few pics from my phone below, not exactly the growth pattern I'm thinking of, kind of similar..
Maybe in time as it develops some will start to like the design, it may still be in a mossy plant ball though, fair warning!
Graham, like you I have a long history of bush work in the forest and wilderness, 20+ years of silviculture and related and wilderness adventure tourism, great tree pics, inspiring, the Doug Fir is classic old growth, not exactly example of what I'm after here. I see different things happen when branches decide to take a shot at being leaders. Often it follows damage to the crown which is evident in my spruce. Often the existing branch tips start to grow upwards and curve skywards. Sometimes interior small growth somewhere along the branch length takes off and thats when you get the sharp angles, 90 deg or similar depending on the angle of the branch to begin with.
A related example can be seen along riverbanks, I've spent lots of time on wilderness rivers, recreationally whitewater canoeing and kayaking and professionally as a whitewater guide. Often trees are undermined on one side by river erosion and begin to lean over the water, we call them sweepers, get too close and you can sweep your clients right out of the boat into the river, always good for a laugh eh? Anyways usually the tips grow back upwards in a nice curve but sometimes a branch somewhere along the trunk takes over instead, again, sharp angle and the tip withers and dies. One larch tree I remember on a river we ran almost daily was like this. It fell over and stopped fully horizontal to the river at the top of the bank. A branch midsection grew straight as an arrow into a nice small tree. There were many of these trees along that stretch of river, frequently being eroded away and falling in but it was that one unusual larch with the sharp bend that was noticed by clients and guides, after high water events or big winds we'd ask ourselves, has that cool tree fallen in yet? It did 2 years ago. Anyways thats the look I'm after, quite specific. It absolutely needs a 90 degree or similar angle straight up from the branch to look the way I hope it will someday. If it looks unnatural to many, fine, to me it wont because I know it is directly modelled after natural trees I have seen and admired.
As for the other plants, maybe the trees would grow much better without them, I don't know, never grown trees in balls of moss before. Ive been watching them recover over the last three years, in the swamp they had yearly growth rates of 1/2" to 1", a couple of the more recovered ones had leader growth of 8" this year. Life in a pot is proving to be different, VASTLY better... so far.., ah, anyways I'll think about plucking some, I do have plenty of trees in traditional soils with little to no company. The base is hidden by moss certainly and is an unknown factor, these things slowly layer up the trunk as the muskeg grows deeper around them, surface roots may be a ways down there. I can say that as soon as the moss is peeled away it exposes trunk without the cool old bark as its been eaten away by moss. I may have to layer it in the end, a problem for later.
A few pics from my phone below, not exactly the growth pattern I'm thinking of, kind of similar..
Maybe in time as it develops some will start to like the design, it may still be in a mossy plant ball though, fair warning!
wireme
Masterpiece
wireme
Masterpiece
One more, I know it's oddball but I swear to have seen very similar trees in the forest and have always thought them to be pretty cool.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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For me, the problem isn't the abrupt change in angle, but more that the shift in direction occurs so far from the trunk. Bringing it in by 50% would look better, I think. Good luck with it.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Those last few pics are a good understanding.
Just don't lose sight of incorporating that beautiful jin.
Very interesting!
Sorce
Just don't lose sight of incorporating that beautiful jin.
Very interesting!
Sorce
wireme
Masterpiece
Thanks Dave, it's not a problem, it an opportunity! No, seriously I see your point but I'm pretty sure its exactly where I want it, I may adjust the angles some still. It's funny, what I am enjoying most with this tree are all the same things bothering everyone else.
wireme
Masterpiece
Yeah, thanks, I think the last pic shows it well enough now, now if folks tell me they hate it I'm pretty confident they are not liking the right thing anyways! I will be trying to bring the jin into the composition more for sure.
wireme
Masterpiece
One more shot for a sense of scale. Ha, just took this, couldn't resist adding to the thread, maybe sent by Jim to take care of those weeds?
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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And hopefully just the weeds!
I know many despise deer in their garden but that's beautiful..,
I know many despise deer in their garden but that's beautiful..,
wireme
Masterpiece
Not a chance of gardening without a fence here. I've gotten half the yard fenced now, the tree was out for the photo backdrop.
I think a spruce is one of the last things they'll eat this time of year. There's a half dozen bucks busily pushing over Saskatoon bushes and eating the berries in my backyard right now. They are beautiful.
I think a spruce is one of the last things they'll eat this time of year. There's a half dozen bucks busily pushing over Saskatoon bushes and eating the berries in my backyard right now. They are beautiful.
wireme
Masterpiece
I did leave the gate open a couple weeks ago and all my maples got pruned, I wasn't a big fan that day...
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