Black pine advice ? Somethings not right !

[Bonsailane]

So I was given my first black pine from a good friend .
This Pine is a monster ,,the base of the tree is fatter than a Coke can !
I’ve only had it for around four months but I have noticed a slow decrease in health .
From a loss of needles and discoloration of needles .
When he gave it to me he said it’s going to need to be repotted next spring .
So of course I was thinking it might be root bound and not getting water to certain areas.
So I pulled it out of the pot just to look at the roots and obviously this is not the case ,,it should have way more roots than this !
It’s getting good sun because I have it next to my junipers in they are doing just fine.
What are your thoughts ?

 

[Dav4]

@Adair M will fill in the blanks, but from what I can see, the soil is too heavy and wet and the pine is suffering for it. Throw in some needle cast and cold, winter weather- ie a dormant pine- and that's what you get. If this were mine, i'd heel it in somewhere outside out of the wind wait until the buds start to swell. Then, I'd do the world famous HBR re-pot into more appropriate soil and start spraying with a fungicide... and no de-candling this year as that tree is weak.

 

[River's Edge]

So I was given my first black pine from a good friend .
This Pine is a monster ,,the base of the tree is fatter than a Coke can !
I’ve only had it for around four months but I have noticed a slow decrease in health .
From a loss of needles and discoloration of needles .
When he gave it to me he said it’s going to need to be repotted next spring .
So of course I was thinking it might be root bound and not getting water to certain areas.
So I pulled it out of the pot just to look at the roots and obviously this is not the case ,,it should have way more roots than this !
It’s getting good sun because I have it next to my junipers in they are doing just fine.
What are your thoughts ? View attachment 174292View attachment 174291 View attachment 174290View attachment 174289

I would consider an emergency repot for this particular tree if you can provide recovery aftercare. Your observation of the decline over four months and the current condition suggests that direction. Leaving it as it is will not stabilize or improve it. Rather than a 1/2 HBR approach, I would carefully bare root the tree with chopstick and gentle rinsing away the old soil. Remove all rotted roots and organic material. Plant in pure pumice, carefully working the pumice between and around the remaining roots. Secure the tree in the container and use a container with excellent drainage such as an Anderson flat or purpose built grow box. Provide a heat mat for root recovery, water carefully and mist frequently. Keep in a sunny location with ambient temperature above 50 degree Fahrenheit. It might already be too late but improving the conditions sooner rather than later seems best. No disrespect to the tried and true 1/2 HBR approach which will be considered by many to be a safer route. Daconyl treatment for the needle cast.

 

[Ancient Dogwood]

IMO the planting mix is the problem. Looks like a peat based blend with turface? Works ok in big tall nursery containers, not so good for shallow bonsai pots. Hard to tell exctly from photo. Still looks to be a decent bud set. Treat needle cast with daconyl as suggested. I would repot as soon as appropriate where you are. If you can do the after care Frank said, then could do now. Warm root zone and cool canopy is ideal conditions for root growth. I would go into a grow box rather than an anderson flat. I use both, but anderson flats have a little flex to them. You want your tree well secured with no movement to get best possible root growth in recovery. Pure pumice is good. But i would use 1:1:1 akadama, pumice lava mix. I think that will give a little better nutrient holding and still be well draining. I wouldn't do a full bare root repot. Full bare root is possible, but I would only remove half or so of the current soil. But you'll have to come back after a couple years and repot again to remove the rest of the current soil. As said, I think that is a safer route to optimize the health of the tree. Definitely don't decandle this year. Normally i delay start of fertilizing a bit to help keep needles short. But since you need to do some recovery, I'd start fertilizing with organic fertilizers once the temps warm up, half amount for first month, and if tree looks to be recovering, normal amounts from there.

 

[clive bennett]

As dav4 says its roots are too wet I would do a partial repot either into its pot or in a pile of good bonsai soil planted into the garden

 

[M. Frary]

the world famous HBR re-pot

disrespect to the tried and true 1/2 HBR

 

[shimbrypaku]

For what is worth, I agree the soil is way too wet for a pine.

 

[shimbrypaku]

On another note,
The soil should drain freely and cycle before watering again. ("Cycle" the soil should dry, not completely before the next watering) Every tree is different so the time in between watering can vary greatly.
Just my two cents worth.

 

[0soyoung]

My $1.50 is to remove the soil from the outer inch or two of the perimeter and replace it with your favorite substrate. Stab a few holes in the old root 'ball' after it is back in the pot, in another pot, heeled in somewhere, etc. with a screw driver, chop stick, root hook, etc. - fill with substrate. Wait until visit returns to do any more.

Now you've got lots of choices and lots of potential scapegoats!

 

[Bonsailane]

My $1.50 is to remove the soil from the outer inch or two of the perimeter and replace it with your favorite substrate. Stab a few holes in the old root 'ball' after it is back in the pot, in another pot, heeled in somewhere, etc. with a screw driver, chop stick, root hook, etc. - fill with substrate. Wait until visit returns to do any more.

Now you've got lots of choices and lots of potential scapegoats!

Thanks for all the advice !!
Hopefully I don’t have to point the finger at anyone !! Lol

 

[shimbrypaku]

My $1.75 agree with @0soyoung, partial soil change if possible. Your choice for soil. I use both of these.

http://www.americanbonsai.com/bonsai-soil_a/265.htm

https://www.bonsaijack.com/category/premixed-bonsai-soil/

 

[namnhi]

Nice looking trunk but leggy.
HBR into good soil and slightly clean the other side. Take out as much soil on the other side as possible but not bare root it. Keep the tree out of the freezing temperature and as much sun as humanly possible.

 

[Adair M]

HBR now if you can protect it from freezing. You likely have a great many dead roots and root rot that need to be removed, or else the situation will worsen

Oso’s suggestion is probably the worst process as most likely the best roots are around the perimeter where it’s dryer, and the dead/rotting roots are under the trunk in the center of the rootball. And they need to be removed.

I have performed countless HBR’s and haven’t lost a tree yet.

 

[shimbrypaku]

HBR never heard that acronym, but I'm a recluse. The pictures I see , and I may need glasses, the roots do not look root bound (Hard Bound Roots) am I correct?

Too much water, soil is too fine , don't see Hard bound roots, but I'm old.

 

[ysrgrathe]

HBR = half bare root. Imagine a vertical plane through the middle of the root ball, and then bare root one half. This is a conifer technique.

 

[shimbrypaku]

Sorry don't see it in the picture.

Too much water, soil to fine not cycling.

 

[shimbrypaku]

you talking about the surface root???

 

[Bonsailane]

HBR now if you can protect it from freezing. You likely have a great many dead roots and root rot that need to be removed, or else the situation will worsen

Oso’s suggestion is probably the worst process as most likely the best roots are around the perimeter where it’s dryer, and the dead/rotting roots are under the trunk in the center of the rootball. And they need to be removed.

I have performed countless HBR’s and haven’t lost a tree yet.

Will do! Thanks

 

[0soyoung]

HBR now if you can protect it from freezing. You likely have a great many dead roots and root rot that need to be removed, or else the situation will worsen

Oso’s suggestion is probably the worst process as most likely the best roots are around the perimeter where it’s dryer, and the dead/rotting roots are under the trunk in the center of the rootball. And they need to be removed.

I have performed countless HBR’s and haven’t lost a tree yet.

This has really taken me aback @Adair M. IIRC, you've always maintained that repotting can only be done in the spring, 'as buds swell'. So, just declare 'emergency' and it is okay?

My thinking is to get the live tips out of the muck and into a substrate in which they can 'breathe' and grow. Worry about the rest later. Half Bare Rooting sorta does the same thing, but only for half the tree, if all the roots closer to the trunk are indeed dead. Six one way, half-a-dozen the other, it seems.

I'm just surprised and even shocked.
What's next, repotting pines in August/September?

 

[808bonsaiSF]

I'm on the HBR train, Do the job right from the beginning and you wont have to mess with that side again until 4-6 yrs down the road maybe more.

Sorry don't see it in the picture.

here's an example of one I did yesterday..