Best Time to perform cutback on Black Pine

[raffaelbaer]

Hey everyone,

I've recently really gotten into pines.

I've got 3 small pines wanting to grow them into different size trees. 2 of the trees are Pinus Thunbergii, 1 is Pinus Nigra. As expected after candle cutting, the 2 black pines created new buds. The Pinus Nigra produced a few needle buds but no real candles as expected from a single flush pine.

However I'm wondering now
On the pinus Nigra, when and how do I cut back into older needles? Since I really wanted to let the blue circled branch continue as the next section, so I have possibility for lower down needles. My plan for this year was to just let the tree do it's thing, wire the main trunk in the fall and next year after candle flush, cut back right down to the blue branch. On dual flush pines this would definitely work, but I don't know how single flush pines will respond to this.

What would be your best approach for this kinda work?





Thanks for any help on my pine and any explanations of cutting back into older needles on single flush pines...

PS: some photos of my other two JBP's I'm growing for shohin / medium size. The Pinus Nigra will be medium to large...

All three will get a basic wiring in the fall (September/October) following the "Black Pine Shohin Course" of Eric Shrader.
Repotting into pond baskets is taken place on all three trees in March/April when buds start moving...



Cheers Raffael

 

[ShimpakuBonsai]

There is a care guide for the Pinus Sylvestris which can be used for the Pinus Nigra aswell.
Link: https://www.bonsainut.com/resources/pinus-sylvestris-care-guide-version-2.52/

 

[Shibui]

I find it does not matter what time of year I chop single flush pines. I may not get immediate response but new buds will emerge when the tree is ready.
You can cut back to the side branch in spring with no problems.

 

[raffaelbaer]

I find it does not matter what time of year I chop single flush pines. I may not get immediate response but new buds will emerge when the tree is ready.
You can cut back to the side branch in spring with no problems.

awesome thanks for the help!

Cheers
Raffael

 

[raffaelbaer]

There is a care guide for the Pinus Sylvestris which can be used for the Pinus Nigra aswell.
Link: https://www.bonsainut.com/resources/pinus-sylvestris-care-guide-version-2.52/

Just read through it, really good information in there, thanks

 

[NeedlesAndLeaves]

There is a care guide for the Pinus Sylvestris which can be used for the Pinus Nigra aswell.
Link: https://www.bonsainut.com/resources/pinus-sylvestris-care-guide-version-2.52/

That is a great care sheet!
So for a JBP/JRP in development we can use the same approach? Not talking about candle cutting to induce a second flush. Just developping

 

[Paradox]

That is a great care sheet!
So for a JBP/JRP in development we can use the same approach? Not talking about candle cutting to induce a second flush. Just developping

No, JBP and JRP are 2 flush pines and are treated differently than single flush pines (Austrian black (the tree in this thread), Japanese white, scots and mugo pines).
Since we candle cut JBP in summer we shouldnt need to cut back into older foliage unless its a stubborn tree that refuses to back bud with the candle cutting.
You would not want to candle cut and cut back in the same year.
They key is to make sure the tree is healthy, vigorous and well fed to do work on it. That will help promote back budding along with needle thinning and wiring movement into the branches

 

[NeedlesAndLeaves]

No, JBP and JRP are 2 flush pines and are treated differently than single flush pines (Austrian black (the tree in this thread), Japanese white, scots and mugo pines).
Since we candle cut JBP in summer we shouldnt need to cut back into older foliage unless its a stubborn tree that refuses to back bud with the candle cutting.
You would not want to candle cut and cut back in the same year.
They key is to make sure the tree is healthy, vigorous and well fed to do work on it. That will help promote back budding along with needle thinning and wiring movement into the branches

Thanks for the clarification!
Pines nigra is a different black pine, my mistake

 

[NeedlesAndLeaves]

No, JBP and JRP are 2 flush pines and are treated differently than single flush pines (Austrian black (the tree in this thread), Japanese white, scots and mugo pines).
Since we candle cut JBP in summer we shouldnt need to cut back into older foliage unless its a stubborn tree that refuses to back bud with the candle cutting.
You would not want to candle cut and cut back in the same year.
They key is to make sure the tree is healthy, vigorous and well fed to do work on it. That will help promote back budding along with needle thinning and wiring movement into the branches

The area were I live is said to may not have long enough summers to produce a second flush that can fully harden off before winter.

So for a 5yrs JBP in development that will probably not flush a second time, do we only prune back shoots late summer to induce backbudding? Together with some needle plucking to distribute energy? So leaving the candle removal aside.
I was in the understanding that we only candle prune refinement work.
Or am following a wrong track?
Tnx

 

[Paradox]

The area were I live is said to may not have long enough summers to produce a second flush that can fully harden off before winter.

So for a 5yrs JBP in development that will probably not flush a second time, do we only prune back shoots late summer to induce backbudding? Together with some needle plucking to distribute energy? So leaving the candle removal aside.
I was in the understanding that we only candle prune refinement work.
Or am following a wrong track?
Tnx

Hmm that is interesting if that is the case and I am not sure to be honest.
I honestly would follow what others in your area do with JBP

 

[NeedlesAndLeaves]

Hmm that is interesting if that is the case and I am not sure to be honest.
I honestly would follow what others in your area do with JBP

I will dive further into it. Thank you for the effort though

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

The area were I live is said to may not have long enough summers to produce a second flush that can fully harden off before winter.

So for a 5yrs JBP in development that will probably not flush a second time, do we only prune back shoots late summer to induce backbudding? Together with some needle plucking to distribute energy? So leaving the candle removal aside.
I was in the understanding that we only candle prune refinement work.
Or am following a wrong track?
Tnx

That’s really interesting. Netherlands has pretty much the same maritime climate as we have here in NW WA State/BC.

We just cut the candles off earlier here to get a reliable second flush. Memorial Dayish in US… last week of May earlier June. Sometimes a tad later if there was an exceptionally cold spring.

@River's Edge can you please tell what your timing for double flush candle pruning is up on Vancouver Island? (btw are you planning to come to the Expo?)

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[River's Edge]

I recommend June 1st as a starting point for decandling in this area. However, as one becomes more knowledgeable of the individual trees and their condition it varies. younger more vigorous trees will be done later ( mid June early July) and more mature trees that are strong but not as vigorous earlier. ( June 1st ) When preparing for a show or entering final stages of refinement the timing is adjusted for the desired results on individual trees.
The guideline provides for a starting point and gives an enthusiast the general timing that is safest.
keep in mind that my area can produce three flushes in a year on multi flush pines. This is not true for areas north on Vancouver island and would not be true of sites that are not exposed for full sun and warmth that pines love. Both my original nursery and my second location have full exposure to the south for full sun. My teacher was very careful to pass on the understanding that it would vary quite a bit with individual trees and locations. Similar to how we judge the timing based on the strength of the candle in some decandling methods it can also vary with the one step approach that is more common today. The term " balancing the technique" comes to mind.
I will not be attending the Bonsai Expo this fall. I will be in Houston at that particular time, conflict in travel plans unfortunately.

 

[NeedlesAndLeaves]

I found this in another post, not the best climate for JBP here

“Peter Warren & Harry Harrington have suggested that JBP **NOT** be treated as double flush in the UK climate. The season isn't long enough or warm enough to reliably get the second flush matured.”

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

That’s bonsai for you!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Wulfskaar]

Just a note on development... you can use candle cutting to gain ramification (branching).

 

[NeedlesAndLeaves]

Just a note on development... you can use candle cutting to gain ramification (branching).

As in the same way of treating a single flush pine you mean?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

If there is a young tree involved that is robust and healthy, would think one ought to give it a try with the double flush method. But cut early as suggested.

…wondering …does your location get the same weather as theirs? Netherlands climatology is very similar to ours.

Best
DSD sends

 

[NeedlesAndLeaves]

If there is a young tree involved that is robust and healthy, would think one ought to give it a try with the double flush method. But cut early as suggested.

…wondering …does your location get the same weather as theirs? Netherlands climatology is very similar to ours.

Best
DSD sends

It can’t be that much different ..

Any way I will try the double flush method early next season. Won’t know if I don’t try!

Tnx for your addition