And one more spring-to-early thread. Need advice!

[Alex DeRuiter]

Hey everyone,

So I know many of us are having issues with trees breaking dormancy too early. I have a couple Japanese maples that I just noticed have started pushing new shoots -- a "Bloodgood" (or whatever) and a "Kiyo Hime." Now, there are buds swelling but no leaves popping. Still, I'm assuming this is the beginning of an unstoppable process. This being the case, I think I should leave them out during the day when it's warm, and bring them in under the lights at night. Would this be advisable?

I haven't checked all of my trees yet, so I still have to go through everything to make sure it really is just these two.

Pictures to come. . . .

 

[Dav4]

Personally, I'd keep them as cold as possible without having the soil freeze...it will slow down the eventual opening of the buds and the end of any frost resistance. When I used to over winter my acers in an unattached garage in MA, the buds would almost always start to swell right about now. I'd usually pull them out of the garage and mulch them into my veggie garden...the colder outdoors temps would slow down the bud opening and the heavy mulch would prevent the roots from any freeze damage.

 

[davetree]

Dav4 is right, keep them just above freezing as long as you can. Repotting and root pruning will also slow them down a few weeks.

 

[rockm]

Keep them BELOW freezing if possible. Don't worry about them getting frozen. Doesn't matter if the buds haven't broken, they're in no danger unless temps drop well below 20 (Which probably ain't gonna happen).

Bud swelling is paused when soil temps go below about 40 or so. You want to keep the soil temps below that to put the buds on hold.

 

[Dan W.]

I read some good info here:

http://crataegus.com/2012/01/17/winter-cold-and-tree-roots/

 

[rockm]

The best articles on winter and bonsai I've ever read are here:
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/overwint.htm
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/dormancy.htm
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/frzekill.htm

 

[davetree]

Sounded like pushing new shoots. More like buds swelling but not new shoots ? Which one ? If new shoots no freezing, if just buds swelling, freezing is ok.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

Sorry it took me so long to respond, guys. Been a rough week. . . .

Personally, I'd keep them as cold as possible without having the soil freeze...it will slow down the eventual opening of the buds and the end of any frost resistance. When I used to over winter my acers in an unattached garage in MA, the buds would almost always start to swell right about now. I'd usually pull them out of the garage and mulch them into my veggie garden...the colder outdoors temps would slow down the bud opening and the heavy mulch would prevent the roots from any freeze damage.

Thank you for that. I wasn't sure how much the buds could take. This being the case, I'll make sure to keep them as cold as possible without letting the roots freeze. If the leaves sprout, I'll just put them in the garage at night.

Keep them BELOW freezing if possible. Don't worry about them getting frozen. Doesn't matter if the buds haven't broken, they're in no danger unless temps drop well below 20 (Which probably ain't gonna happen).

Bud swelling is paused when soil temps go below about 40 or so. You want to keep the soil temps below that to put the buds on hold.

The best articles on winter and bonsai I've ever read are here:
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/overwint.htm
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/dormancy.htm
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/frzekill.htm

Yeah, I doubt it'll drop below 20 now. Crazy to think that the worst part of winter is pretty much done with. March is never really terrible in Michigan...but you never now with this weather. I had no clue that bud swelling could even be paused. That kinda puts my mind at ease. I'll just keep them in the cold. I don't think temperatures in the day have been above 35 for the past week, so this should help. Night temps have been steady around 28-30.

I also took some cuttings since the buds are swelling, so I'm hoping to get a decent success rate with those.

Thank you for the links, by the way. I don't remember reading this "frzkill.htm" article by Brent before, so that was extremely interesting.

I read some good info here:

http://crataegus.com/2012/01/17/winter-cold-and-tree-roots/

Thank you Dan! That's another good one.

Sounded like pushing new shoots. More like buds swelling but not new shoots ? Which one ? If new shoots no freezing, if just buds swelling, freezing is ok.

It's both. A bunch of new shoots sprouted and the buds are swelling. They haven't gotten to freezing temperatures thankfully, but it definitely hasn't been above 40 for the past week, so I think it should be okay for now.

 

[rockm]

"had no clue that bud swelling could even be paused. That kinda puts my mind at ease. I'll just keep them in the cold."

The end of dormancy is driven directly by soil temperatures. It is nature's "fail safe" switch for trees and plants in temperate zones. Think about it, if trees in the ground were at the mercy of day-to-day air temperatures, they'd be breaking bud during the first warm day in January--and be killed off. Exentending growth is probably the single most stressful and energy draining thing a big tree can do. It cannot risk being "wrong" about spring's arrival. Since soil warms grandually and more deeply as winter turns to spring, this is a more reliable measure of the approaching spring.

FWIW, I have ENCOURAGED my budding trees to freeze solid repeatedly over the last few weeks. That has been the only thing that has prevented some of them from budding in the beginning of Feb. The thing about NOT letting them freeze is unless you can reliably keep the root zone temps at 35 or so, you risk encouraging budding because you will keep them too warm. Forty is not an absolute cut off--there is no newsletter among trees that says they have to cease activities at that temperature . Cut offs are in the region of 40, but can vary species to species and even within species regionally. FROZEN IS BETTER for holding them back.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

That makes sense. I wouldn't imagine it could risk being wrong...otherwise there'd be a lot of dead trees in this area right now.

I've had the trees freeze solid once or twice throughout the season, but it definitely wasn't encouraged and I was honestly a bit worried until I saw this new growth. lol -- Now that I know it's not a huge issue, I feel much better. I'll put them all outside tomorrow night to get them to freeze over. Tonight's predicted to hit 22 degrees, but tomorrow in the high twenties.

And they should absolutely start a newsletter...lazy trees. ;-p

 

[raydomz]

I'm suprised to hear that your trees are moving this early. I wouldn't think there would be that much of a difference between our locations but I must be wrong.
I thought about putting them out in the nice weather this past weekend but decided to keep them in the cold garage all day just to avoid any unwanted swelling of buds.
Post some pictures when you get a chance, I'm dying to see new spring foliage!

 

[rockm]

"I thought about putting them out in the nice weather this past weekend but decided to keep them in the cold garage all day just to avoid any unwanted swelling of buds."

Any time this urge comes up, ignore it. The trees will bud in time--this winter, the longer it takes the better off they are. I have a feeling March is going to bring some cold temps at unwanted times. The longer you can keep trees dormant, the better.

I sound like a broken record on this issue, but this winter has been exceptionally warm. We are at least two weeks, probably more, ahead of where things usually are this time of year. Mother Nature is a B#$%^ and has no problem with a few deep, killing freezes in March and April. That is what I am very worried about this year--trees in leaf, temps in the teens = dead trees in May.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

As per a hardiness zone map, we're both technically in 5b. Though this season has probably been a bit off. lol -- I remember one day where we were completely clear of snow and the east side was getting pounded.

I'll snap some pictures, but nothing's actually popping yet -- just swelling at this point. (Boy, this post could potentially have several innuendos at this point. haha). I'll take some pictures of the buds and new shoots though. And of course of the leaves when they open up.

 

[raydomz]

As per a hardiness zone map, we're both technically in 5b. Though this season has probably been a bit off. lol -- I remember one day where we were completely clear of snow and the east side was getting pounded.

I'll snap some pictures, but nothing's actually popping yet -- just swelling at this point. (Boy, this post could potentially have several innuendos at this point. haha). I'll take some pictures of the buds and new shoots though. And of course of the leaves when they open up.

hahahhahahahaa.

 

[MattB]

I am guessing this will end up being a concern for the majority of the midwesterners in the next week or two... my 14 day forcast shows one day below 50 and only two nights below 40. Four of the next six days are right around 70. Already, I have a few big willows in the front yard with leaves and our forsythia yellowing as of yesterday. Usually, the rest of our flowering plants dont seem to wait much longer to wake up after these early risers. Since I only have 5 trees potted up, I've really been considering just letting them bud out and moving them back and forth from a heated area if we do get another (our first) dose of winter. Fortunately, the farmer's almanac says we only have another 33 days until our chances for frost are up. (they also forcasted an extremely snowy winter...we got maybe 2 inches)

Looking back at the spring of 2010, we really aren't that far off. We did have much cooler winter that year, but I have a photo from March 3rd and our forsythia were in full bloom.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

That last bit is actually kind of calming news to me. Where are you located, anyway?

Yeah, I've lost faith in the Farmer's Almanac...lol -- I think moving in and outside should suffice if trees do leaf out...though that is really hard for people who have massive amounts of trees. I looked yesterday and my quinces are starting to produce many flower buds, and that's very exciting to me as this is my first year seeing them in bloom.

 

[MattB]

Very southern tip of Indiana, 7 hours or so south of you...could have swore that was in my profile but apparently its not. 6a is the USDA hardiness.

Your quince will be fine even with frosts I'd assume, I've seen those things bloom in December and never skip a beat through the winter. Very cool plant to have, I've actually been looking everywhere for one for myself.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

It seems that way. They were pretty steady growers last year, but I only just obtained them last May at the bonsai exhibition up in Grand Rapids, MI. I know WeeTree has a bunch of Japanese quinces for sale right now. I'm not sure of many other places. I'm going down to Gregory Beach Bonsai in Dowagiac this weekend, and if I see any there I can shoot you an email or something. I know Don ships a ton of stuff and has a great reputation for it. Otherwise it seems like it'd be worth the road trip from where you are.