Alternative Methods

[Attmos]

Are there ways to bonsai a tree other than "chop the trunk" and "fused trunk"?

 

[BrianBay9]

Grow from seed, the slowest option.

 

[Attmos]

Grow from seed, the slowest option.

That's what I've been doing, and it is painfully slow. lol

It seems like, even from seed, people grow it to a large diameter trunk and then chop it, leaving a large and obvious scar that may or may not go away.
Can a tree be miniaturized simply by pruning and defoliation, or maybe some other way that doesn't include creating a giant scar on one side of the tree?

 

[Empty Mountain]

Can a tree be miniaturized simply by pruning and defoliation, or maybe some other way that doesn't include creating a giant scar on one side of the tree?

For sure! consistent growing and pruning for 30 or so years will give you the best results.

The one shortcut would be to acquire a tree where the first 10 or 20 years of the work has already been done for you, whether by a bonsai artist or collecting a tree that has been miniaturized in the wild by environmental conditions/animals nibbling at it.

 

[Attmos]

For sure! consistent growing and pruning for 30 or so years will give you the best results.

The one shortcut would be to acquire a tree where the first 10 or 20 years of the work has already been done for you, whether by a bonsai artist or collecting a tree that has been miniaturized in the wild by environmental conditions/animals nibbling at it.

I'm in no hurry, I enjoy watching plants grow. I do have a couple older trees I bought, to develop further, but I love the idea of spending a lifetime creating a miniature tree similar to how it would happen in a natural environment.

To be honest, I'm bipolar and raising plants is therapeutic. I'd get bored with a project like 'grow in it the ground and then chop the trunk'.

I guess, I'm not looking to achieve anything anytime soon. It's more about the process because, frankly, I need something productive on which to focus my obsessive nature. lol

Any insight into the long way is pretty much what I'm looking for.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I'm trying to grow a couple bonsai without scars. From seed.
And every year, almost every month, I question myself on why I'm so reluctant in doing so.

I have ten pines in the ground that put out more growth on a single branch in the month of april, than my 'no scar trees' did in 5 years combined.

In the end, I'll be looking at all of my trees from one side only. So I'm not even sure if the no-scar approach would even make sense; if they're on the back of the plant, they're hidden from view anyways.
But as I'm hitting year 6 or 7, I feel like I'm applying the sunk-cost fallacy to some of my plants.. I've invested so much in them, keeping them tiny and refined from the start, that it would be a waste to grow them to 10 times their size in 2 years and make all the work I did obsolete.
So instead, I'm just doing both. Both is fine.

What I'm also doing, is a third option: Make a bonsai out of a branch, and air layer that branch off. Junipers seem to be OK with this.
It uses the power of the mother tree to produce good growth and get thicker faster, while I refine it by wiring and clipping. Then when the desired design is nearly there, I air layer it off so that it now has its own roots.

 

[gooeytek]

You can make collecting yamadori as part of the hobby. I've seen some old, collected junipers that are spectacular.

 

[Attmos]

I'm trying to grow a couple bonsai without scars. From seed.
And every year, almost every month, I question myself on why I'm so reluctant in doing so.

I have ten pines in the ground that put out more growth on a single branch in the month of april, than my 'no scar trees' did in 5 years combined.

In the end, I'll be looking at all of my trees from one side only. So I'm not even sure if the no-scar approach would even make sense; if they're on the back of the plant, they're hidden from view anyways.
But as I'm hitting year 6 or 7, I feel like I'm applying the sunk-cost fallacy to some of my plants.. I've invested so much in them, keeping them tiny and refined from the start, that it would be a waste to grow them to 10 times their size in 2 years and make all the work I did obsolete.
So instead, I'm just doing both. Both is fine.

What I'm also doing, is a third option: Make a bonsai out of a branch, and air layer that branch off. Junipers seem to be OK with this.
It uses the power of the mother tree to produce good growth and get thicker faster, while I refine it by wiring and clipping. Then when the desired design is nearly there, I air layer it off so that it now has its own roots.

My introduction to horticulture was growing pot plants, and that's pretty much how I was taught to do it. Grow a plant to a certain height and density, cut it and root the cuttings, which become smaller/older versions of the mother plant... giving them incredible ramification and therefor, more weed. The more generations you grow, the more condensed the plant becomes....

 

[Attmos]

You can make collecting yamadori as part of the hobby. I've seen some old, collected junipers that are spectacular.

Collecting from natural environments you mean, right?

I spent 20ish year in the Vail Valley, Colorado. I have seen so many tiny trees, Junipers.. cliff dwellers, aspen rejects... lol
I'm kicking myself in the ass right now for not taking more interest in them.

 

[Attmos]

I'm trying to grow a couple bonsai without scars. From seed.
And every year, almost every month, I question myself on why I'm so reluctant in doing so.

I have ten pines in the ground that put out more growth on a single branch in the month of april, than my 'no scar trees' did in 5 years combined.

In the end, I'll be looking at all of my trees from one side only. So I'm not even sure if the no-scar approach would even make sense; if they're on the back of the plant, they're hidden from view anyways.
But as I'm hitting year 6 or 7, I feel like I'm applying the sunk-cost fallacy to some of my plants.. I've invested so much in them, keeping them tiny and refined from the start, that it would be a waste to grow them to 10 times their size in 2 years and make all the work I did obsolete.
So instead, I'm just doing both. Both is fine.

What I'm also doing, is a third option: Make a bonsai out of a branch, and air layer that branch off. Junipers seem to be OK with this.
It uses the power of the mother tree to produce good growth and get thicker faster, while I refine it by wiring and clipping. Then when the desired design is nearly there, I air layer it off so that it now has its own roots.

I guess I'm gonna stick with it, develop the original plants. But I think I'll probly clone them, as you said.

 

[Lorax7]

Are there ways to bonsai a tree other than "chop the trunk" and "fused trunk"?

If you’re talking about developing trunk taper, letting a low branch grow out long while keeping upper branches pruned back is an approach some use. Eventually, the low branch gets pruned back and a branch a little higher up is allowed to grow out long, etc.

 

[Attmos]

If you’re talking about developing trunk taper, letting a low branch grow out long while keeping upper branches pruned back is an approach some use. Eventually, the low branch gets pruned back and a branch a little higher up is allowed to grow out long, etc.

The "sacrificial limb".
I've been kind of doing that with my twin silver maples. But what I've done is grow them to three feet. I then cut the lead bud and forced them to branch. After rubbing a few lower sprouts off, the branching is contained to the very top of the tree.

So I've been using the top branches of these as "sacrificial", to redirect plant hormones, and I cut down a whole node when there is sufficient leaf growth. Once this year so far. I'll probly do it again this year... they're pretty much indestructible, lol.
My plan is to do this until they've been cut down to about a foot.

Does this practice sound reasonable, or should I actually let a branch grow out to sacrifice?

 

[gooeytek]

Collecting from natural environments you mean, right?

I spent 20ish year in the Vail Valley, Colorado. I have seen so many tiny trees, Junipers.. cliff dwellers, aspen rejects... lol
I'm kicking myself in the ass right now for not taking more interest in them.

Exactly! I live on Long Island, and I think our highest elevation is a building . I wish we had mountains.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Option 1: Get more trees
Option 2: Focus on Shohin size trees which dont need particularge trunks to be excellent bonsai
Option 3: Enjoy the patient approach
Option 4: Realize a large trunk scar will heal over in fewer years than it will take in a pot to grow a scarless trunk.
Option 5: Grow species where sacrifices can be used as deadwood features.

 

[shohin_branches]

To fully close up a large scar you simply have to do wound care every year until it closes up. When you do the initial chop make sure that the wood that the callus is supposed to grow over is shaved smooth. Then clean up the live edges with a sharp knife and apply cut paste. When it appears that healing has stopped remove the cutpaste, reopen the edges of the scar with a sharp knife, and apply new cutpaste. After a few years of consistent care the scar will heal over. Not all species are good at scarring over on big chops but many of the common species for bonsai are easy to get to heal up.

 

[Shibui]

Bonsai can be grown without grow and chop but it does take time.
here's one I prepared earlier.

That trident has always lived in a pot. Never been chopped, just light pruning so no scars.
Yes, it is slower. Yes you will need to develop some patience but you should end up with a superior bonsai.
Aim for smaller sized trees for quicker results.
Choose quicker developing species - ficus, trident maple, etc and stay away from the notorious slow growers - ginkgo, junipers

 

[leatherback]

Lol, I TRY to not answer every question with one of my videos, but this is just right I feel:

 

[Attmos]

Exactly! I live on Long Island, and I think our highest elevation is a building . I wish we had mountains.

I'm sure that makes collecting yamadori tough. lol

 

[Attmos]

Option 1: Get more trees
Option 2: Focus on Shohin size trees which dont need particularge trunks to be excellent bonsai
Option 3: Enjoy the patient approach
Option 4: Realize a large trunk scar will heal over in fewer years than it will take in a pot to grow a scarless trunk.
Option 5: Grow species where sacrifices can be used as deadwood features.

Probly gonna have to do all of those things. I'm new and still learning, but I'll get there.

 

[Attmos]

To fully close up a large scar you simply have to do wound care every year until it closes up. When you do the initial chop make sure that the wood that the callus is supposed to grow over is shaved smooth. Then clean up the live edges with a sharp knife and apply cut paste. When it appears that healing has stopped remove the cutpaste, reopen the edges of the scar with a sharp knife, and apply new cutpaste. After a few years of consistent care the scar will heal over. Not all species are good at scarring over on big chops but many of the common species for bonsai are easy to get to heal up.

When I have a worthwhile tree to use, I'll keep that in mind,... but I'm sure I'll be back here for more advice. lol
Hearing that the scar will heal over from so many people helps.

Thank You.