Advice on another Stewartia trunk chop

Josh88

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IMG_0661.JPG IMG_0669.JPG When I first started reading here about trunk chopping larger trees last fall, I caught sight of this stewartia at my local nursery and bought it with the plan of chopping this spring. There has been some great advice from @Leo in N E Illinois in a thread started by @Eddy, and a wonderful link to an @Owen Reich article from @quietobserver about his same topic. Here are a few pictures of my tree, and I would love some other's thoughts. That's a business card case for size reference. I was originally thinking of chopping around the second branch on the right, but upon a closer look there appear to be three buds just above and left of the first branch, and I wonder if this would be a better choice. This will be my first big trunk chop and I'm looking forward to whatever I learn from this experience, but I'd love to hear what others would do with this material, or if you would bother at all if it was yours. If this were your tree how would you proceed?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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First, I'd want to excavate the soil around the trunk to determine which side shows the best base. With any luck, it would be somewhere to the right side of your image. Then I'd cut it off just above the first branch, and make that the continuation of the trunk. Letting it grow a few years would smooth the transition, and mostly heal the chop.

Bjorn said they have 2 basic growth types: either a spreading nebari on a thinner trunk, or a fat base on a huge trunk. Without digging around the soil surface a little, it's hard to tell what you're working with. Stewartia is a favorite among the pros. Nice tree; tough to find.
 

Josh88

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First, I'd want to excavate the soil around the trunk to determine which side shows the best base. With any luck, it would be somewhere to the right side of your image. Then I'd cut it off just above the first branch, and make that the continuation of the trunk. Letting it grow a few years would smooth the transition, and mostly heal the chop.

Bjorn said they have 2 basic growth types: either a spreading nebari on a thinner trunk, or a fat base on a huge trunk. Without digging around the soil surface a little, it's hard to tell what you're working with. Stewartia is a favorite among the pros. Nice tree; tough to find.
Thank you Brian. I like that as a plan. From the article by Owen it sounds like these form heavy callouses with rounded scar tissue. Would you cut at 45 degrees and form a concave in the wound hoping the tissue would round over, or would you form a convex to let the wound form a shoulder? Does my question even make sense? : ) Thank you again for your input!
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Thank you Brian. I like that as a plan. From the article by Owen it sounds like these form heavy callouses with rounded scar tissue. Would you cut at 45 degrees and form a concave in the wound hoping the tissue would round over, or would you form a convex to let the wound form a shoulder? Does my question even make sense? : ) Thank you again for your input!
The problem with big trunk chops is that the lower side of the chop will tend to die back to the next living branch below the chop, and there isn't one here, so you may run the risk of killing the whole back of the tree if that first branch isn't super vigorous.

A longer, but safer course of action, may be to leave the first right branch untouched, and severely prune everything coming off the main trunk, but without chopping it yet; with the goal of prompting some of those latent buds on the trunk to grow (circled in green, maybe?). If you can get even a small branch growing there, you should be able to perform the trunk chop (shown in red) and prevent the dieback from extending lower than those newly-formed branches.
IMG_0388.JPG
I have trunk-chopped my young stewartia, and it responded with great back-budding, so it will do that, but it really slowed the tree down. It's back in the ground, and it's slow!
 

Josh88

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The problem with big trunk chops is that the lower side of the chop will tend to die back to the next living branch below the chop, and there isn't one here, so you may run the risk of killing the whole back of the tree if that first branch isn't super vigorous.

A longer, but safer course of action, may be to leave the first right branch untouched, and severely prune everything coming off the main trunk, but without chopping it yet; with the goal of prompting some of those latent buds on the trunk to grow (circled in green, maybe?). If you can get even a small branch growing there, you should be able to perform the trunk chop (shown in red) and prevent the dieback from extending lower than those newly-formed branches.
View attachment 143469
I have trunk-chopped my young stewartia, and it responded with great back-budding, so it will do that, but it really slowed the tree down. It's back in the ground, and it's slow!
Thank you very much for taking the time to draw this up Brian.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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This is another one, that I would consider repotting into an Anderson flat, or shallow less than 5 inch deep tray this year. The grow out container should hold more media than the nursery can it currently is in. Let it establish new roots at least one growing season. Then do the hard prune back that Brian Van Fleet suggested. Point is development and healing of chops will be much much faster if the tree rolls into the serious work with a big full root system. Also, with deciduous trees, getting the roots right is critical, the transplant will let you see the exact shape of the nebari and root system. Your will then have an idea where your possible fronts are, and give you time to really consider how you will style the tree. The future buds that sprout may give you ideas that will change your plans.

At least that is what I'd do, if the tree were mine. If you need bonsai projects, I see bamboo in pots in the background, try creating bamboo bonsai. In the book by John Naka, Bonsai Techniques II, there is a brief chapter on bamboo as bonsai. The techniques there really do work, though I have failed to make an attractive bamboo bonsai yet. Just potting bamboo in a tray to create a ''bamboo forest'' is okay, but the internode lengths on bamboo left to grow on its own are not short enough to create a convincing image of a real bamboo grove. The technique of culm sheath removal that Naka outlines will nicely shorten the internode distances. It really works. I've tried it. It requires daily attention during the shooting period, so it will keep your mind off the Stewartias, allowing you to let the Stewartia grow out a season after transplanting. LOL

Seriously, start a separate thread or PM me if you want to talk bamboo. @ Tag me so I find the thread, I think bamboo belongs in either General, or Forest plantings or Kusamono

Nice Stewartia by the way, I would be happy to have material like that to work with.
 

Josh88

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This is another one, that I would consider repotting into an Anderson flat, or shallow less than 5 inch deep tray this year. The grow out container should hold more media than the nursery can it currently is in. Let it establish new roots at least one growing season. Then do the hard prune back that Brian Van Fleet suggested. Point is development and healing of chops will be much much faster if the tree rolls into the serious work with a big full root system. Also, with deciduous trees, getting the roots right is critical, the transplant will let you see the exact shape of the nebari and root system. Your will then have an idea where your possible fronts are, and give you time to really consider how you will style the tree. The future buds that sprout may give you ideas that will change your plans.

At least that is what I'd do, if the tree were mine. If you need bonsai projects, I see bamboo in pots in the background, try creating bamboo bonsai. In the book by John Naka, Bonsai Techniques II, there is a brief chapter on bamboo as bonsai. The techniques there really do work, though I have failed to make an attractive bamboo bonsai yet. Just potting bamboo in a tray to create a ''bamboo forest'' is okay, but the internode lengths on bamboo left to grow on its own are not short enough to create a convincing image of a real bamboo grove. The technique of culm sheath removal that Naka outlines will nicely shorten the internode distances. It really works. I've tried it. It requires daily attention during the shooting period, so it will keep your mind off the Stewartias, allowing you to let the Stewartia grow out a season after transplanting. LOL

Seriously, start a separate thread or PM me if you want to talk bamboo. @ Tag me so I find the thread, I think bamboo belongs in either General, or Forest plantings or Kusamono

Nice Stewartia by the way, I would be happy to have material like that to work with.
Thank you for the reply Leo. I have a few questions for you. First, do you think this tree will respond well to a re-pot at this time of year? Any precautions to take with that? Second, the tree is about 8 feet tall from the soil line, so I think an Anderson flat might be small for it's currrent stature. Would a repot and pruning be an option, or would that completely undermine the goal of developing healthy roots? I will definitely shoot you a pm about bamboo. I grow a number of vairieties and although I am very full of bonsai projects already, that sounds like a fun addition! Thanks again and I look forward to chatting more with you.
 

Josh88

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I missed my window of opportunity to chop and/or repot this tree last year, so getting ready to make a move now that buds are swelling. Here are pics of the best possible fronts IMO taking advantage of the basal flare. The question I’m mulling over is whether I go with a taller tree and what I think is the best base, but has less drastic taper, or chop lower and get more taper, but have a big wound to heal on the front from the low crossing branch. Any thoughts from the nuts before I make my cuts?
04A66E09-C7B5-43AA-B719-6DE2B299065D.jpeg5F602B43-777E-45A6-9E8F-F557CB6401B5.jpegBFBDCD0E-8B6E-432E-8DEE-54BDB33656DB.jpeg8479CCCE-1FB5-40C3-B8C8-C154C74D39D7.jpeg
 
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If you’re going to chop low you might consider leaving it in that nursery can this year. You’ll pull all the metabolic energy out of all those roots and use it for your new top growth. Hard to say by the pics, but that low branch that it looks like you’re planning on cutting might still have potential. You can always remove it later. Nice piece of material regardless, good luck and enjoy!!
 

Paulpash

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Don't chop & root prune in the same season - I'd chop a few inches higher above the second branch and encourage those low buds to pop. If it does die back those few inches are your insurance policy. You can come back & clean up the chop later when you know the degree of dieback. FYI if you are subscribed to mirai live it has like a 2 hr video just on Stewartia. A month's subscription will be money well spent.
 

CasAH

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In the fourth photo I I would air layer between the first branch on the right and the second group of buds on the left. This way you get rid of the straight section of trunk,. You then have the choice of the second branch or one of the branches that pop out of the two sets of buds to choose a new leader.
 

Josh88

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Don't chop & root prune in the same season - I'd chop a few inches higher above the second branch and encourage those low buds to pop. If it does die back those few inches are your insurance policy. You can come back & clean up the chop later when you know the degree of dieback. FYI if you are subscribed to mirai live it has like a 2 hr video just on Stewartia. A month's subscription will be money well spent.
So much good info on Mirai Live! This one isn’t a Monadelpha, so larger leaves than why Ryan was working with, which is one reason I’m thinking of going bigger with this tree. If I go with the higher chop there is another branch on the left that should help heal the wound and prevent dieback as well. I’ve beem staring at it for a year and still can’t make up my mind.
 

Josh88

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In the fourth photo I I would air layer between the first branch on the right and the second group of buds on the left. This way you get rid of the straight section of trunk,. You then have the choice of the second branch or one of the branches that pop out of the two sets of buds to choose a new leader.
Interesting idea I hadn’t thought of. I like it. Another option to weigh!
 

Paulpash

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So much good info on Mirai Live! This one isn’t a Monadelpha, so larger leaves than why Ryan was working with, which is one reason I’m thinking of going bigger with this tree. If I go with the higher chop there is another branch on the left that should help heal the wound and prevent dieback as well. I’ve beem staring at it for a year and still can’t make up my mind.

No guts, no glory... Time slips by so easily if you allow it to.. FYI, an air layer is the equivalent of a chop in that buds below are stimulated into growth.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Nice, it is big enough, time to do something. IF you did nothing else, I would repot, even if you have to build a tray because the Anderson flat is too small. You really need to get a look at the roots and nebari.

I liked Marie 1uk's suggestions for styling.

I do like the diagonal chop line in the last photo. Only I would cut it off square, then after it back buds, and new branches are large enough they won't get broken off easily, then re-cut on the diagonal to put the majority of the scar to the back side of the tree.
 

0soyoung

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I’m on team “chop above the second branch” and also team “go get it!” I look forward to the updates :cool:
Is there a team "chop it above the first big branch"? That appeals most to me because of how it is sprouting down low on the opposite side --> big thick trunk would then taper into nicely undulating movement (of the present first branch which becomes the continuation of the trunk) and the chop will be to the back. Otherwise, I want to be on your team. :D

My gut also wants to say 'air layer it' but my experience is that stewartia are slow to root - my layers of pseudocamellia took two years! One could just partially saw through the trunk at the same time so that the 'chop' partially heals while waiting on the layer. Hmmmm, nice technical tour de force, if one is up for it, @Josh88 .
 
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I find that these grow fast and heal cuts and chops VERY slowly. I also have pseudo camellia, and find that a taller tree is pretty essential to correct scale. I have not tried leaf reduction techniques on mine, as I'm still developing secondary branching. This looks good, I would want to get started on the root work at this point.
 
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