acer rubrum

[greenhorn321]

I have a few american red maple seedlings about 5 inches tall with four to five sets of leaves. My question is when do I make the first cut for informal upright?

 

[JudyB]

Let these grow for a couple of years before you even think about cutting them. In the mean time, get a book about how to work with maples, Peter Adams has a really good book called Bonsai with Japanese Maples, that shows step by step methods of growing and working maples.
BTW welcome to the forum!

 

[MACH5]

Yes just like Judy mentioned, in Peter's book he describes step by step exactly what you're asking. Be mindful that A. Rubrum tends to have large leaves and long internodes... so perhaps it may be best to create a bonsai on the larger size to compensate.

 

[rockm]

Peter's book is terrific for Japaneses maples. Using it to design Acer Rubrum, however, is a tall order. A. Rubrum has excessively long internodes--spaces between leaf pairs on the twig. This is extremely hard, if not futile, to control. It also is incapable of the fine twigging that Japanese maples have.

Large specimens are best and by large, I mean trunks in excess of four inches in diameter and heights of over 20 inches. That will give a bit of scale in the image that is lost on a smaller trunk. That means you're looking at a decade or so just growing the trunks on these out in the groun (no other work necessary, other than a cursory root prune ever three years or so to spread the nebari) and another five years of secondary and tertiary branch development.

That's the issue with seedlings. They take time. The more difficult the species (and A. Rubrum isn't easy) the longer it takes.

I know others will probably chime in and say they have perfectly acceptable A. Rubrum, but ask how long it would take to develop their tree from a seedling....

The plus side of the species is that it almost always develops interesting nebari or base roots. It is also extremely vigorous and hardy.

 

[greenhorn321]

I'm aslo wondering when you let the trunk thicken does that mean you have to let the tree grow tall?

 

[MACH5]

Yes it does. It's grow, chop, rinse and repeat

 

[greenhorn321]

When it is nice and thick at what height do I make the cut? My guess is two thirds of final desired height?

 

[Dav4]

When it is nice and thick at what height do I make the cut? My guess is two thirds of final desired height?

Actually more like 1/3 of final designed height. Again, the goal is consistent taper along the length of the trunk which you will only get with repeated chops.

 

[JudyB]

I know that the book is about J maple, but the illustrations in the P. Adams book I recommended would work with just about any deciduous tree in training. And maybe you've heard, get the book too often, but the pictures in this book will go a long way to helping you with most of your questions. Even though they are pointed towards J. maple in particular.

 

[Johnnyd]

Yes just like Judy mentioned, in Peter's book he describes step by step exactly what you're asking. Be mindful that A. Rubrum tends to have large leaves and long internodes... so perhaps it may be best to create a bonsai on the larger size to compensate.

Are there any native maples or deciduous trees in our area(NJ) that are suitable to bonsai?

 

[just.wing.it]

Are there any native maples or deciduous trees in our area(NJ) that are suitable to bonsai?

Acer Rubrum is the one that may be usable.
I want to get my hands on one, so far I've tried seedlings, but critters keep eating them.
Gotta get a big collected one.

 

[jeanluc83]

Are there any native maples or deciduous trees in our area(NJ) that are suitable to bonsai?

Not really but Japanese maples have been grown for a long time as landscape trees so feral seedlings can easily be found. Take a drive around local neighborhood you might be surprised what you find.

 

[just.wing.it]

Not really but Japanese maples have been grown for a long time as landscape trees so feral seedlings can easily be found. Take a drive around local neighborhood you might be surprised what you find.

True true!
I have a feral j maple, lol!!
I like that term for it, haven't heard that one yet...

Mine starts out bright red, then quickly goes blood red, and in mid summer it slowly goes all green!...then red for autumn.
I love it!
I think it was a seed from a Bloodgood.

 

[jeanluc83]

True true!
I have a feral j maple, lol!!
I like that term for it, haven't heard that one yet...

I think I originally got it from @Vance Wood in a discussion about scots pine.

 

[Zach Smith]

Are there any native maples or deciduous trees in our area(NJ) that are suitable to bonsai?

Don't know about maples, but American elm and American Hornbeam range all the way to Canada. Both excellent species for bonsai.

 

[rockm]

Are there any native maples or deciduous trees in our area(NJ) that are suitable to bonsai?

Ditto what Zach said. Native maples don't work very well as bonsai. If you live in an urban or suburban area, however, look at Japanese maples planted in yards, as well as for boxwood, azaleas wisteria, and other ornamentals. the older the neighborhood, the better the material.

If you want native material, I'm afraid you're going to have to learn what species actually look like. The "what kind of tree have I collected" question is asked a lot here. It's a bad question. Asking after you have dug something up not only robs the tree of most of its chances at surviving, it also robs you of a lesson in how and what to collect.

If I were you, I'd buy a North American field guide to native trees and study up. A physical guide BOOK can travel into the woods with you and help ID plants. Additionally, going to nurseries, arboretums and activities like that can help teach you what species you're looking at...

 

[Johnnyd]

Ditto what Zach said. Native maples don't work very well as bonsai. If you live in an urban or suburban area, however, look at Japanese maples planted in yards, as well as for boxwood, azaleas wisteria, and other ornamentals. the older the neighborhood, the better the material.

If you want native material, I'm afraid you're going to have to learn what species actually look like. The "what kind of tree have I collected" question is asked a lot here. It's a bad question. Asking after you have dug something up not only robs the tree of most of its chances at surviving, it also robs you of a lesson in how and what to collect.

If I were you, I'd buy a North American field guide to native trees and study up. A physical guide BOOK can travel into the woods with you and help ID plants. Additionally, going to nurseries, arboretums and activities like that can help teach you what species you're looking at...

That's great advice! Thank you. What do you think about Pin Oak.

 

[rockm]

That's great advice! Thank you. What do you think about Pin Oak.

Have heard different things about it. Knew someone who had one as a bonsai.

FWIW, Oaks will be THE MOST difficult species to a beginning collector. All kinds of variables (not to mention huge tap roots with pin and white oaks) that have to be dealt with.

You will most likely have a VERY steep learning curve with pin oak. If you're set on collecting one, start with the crappy one NEXT to the tree you want. See if you can get the crummy one out and keep it alive for three years. It will most likely die, as most initial collection subjects do. If you want a bit of an easier path, see if you can find an already-containerized pin oak at the local nursery. That kind of tree would require a lot less root reduction and could have a better chance at survival. I say could, as you will have to work that containerized root system hard over a few years to get it bonsai-sized depending on the size of tree you're working with.

FWIW, oak bonsai aren't worth having unless they come with ALREADY ESTABLISHED substantial trunk. A sapling oak is pretty uninteresting and you might as well work with a maple. Oak bonsai, like junipers and deadwood, should have a heavy trunk and imposing presence. That means starting off with a big tree (like over 4" base that has older bark) and cutting it down to size.

 

[rockm]

That's great advice! Thank you. What do you think about Pin Oak.

Best beginner collector species is Hornbeam. Easy to collect-- just saw off the roots six inches out and under, saw the main trunk three feet up or so, use it as a lever to break the final roots, pick it up, take it home, hose off all the dirt, plant in the smallest container possible in plain old bonsai soil and wait for a few weeks for new buds.

 

[jeanluc83]

If you can, get a copy of Bonsai from the Wild by Nick Lenz . It is not the most complete book on collecting but the only one that focuses on collecting in the northeast. It also appears that it is getting harder to get in recent years. If you can find a copy for ~$30 it is worth it. I wouldn't pay much more.

Don't rule out bald cypress. You will not likely find them growing locally but with a little winter protection they will grow fine in NJ.