A. palmatum 'shishigashira'

[Fishtank307]

Hi everyone!

I just came back from a tree nursery with this rather large Acer palmatum shishigashira. They had a lot of japanese maples for 'garden use' in stock and I remembered this cultivar being used for bonsai. It was on sale, so I didn't really hesitate.

The base and cultivar was what caught my eye... Base is 12 cm (4.7 inches) at its widest.




Plenty of new growth near the base.


Three large branches emerging from the same point. The plan is to air-layer it in a couple of places.


It's pretty big! 130 cm from the soil level (4.2 feet)


Good growth. I thought they were slow growers, but some of the shoots are 20+ cm.


I have no experience with this cultivar, so I do have a couple of questions:

Do they air-layer well?
How do they take root pruning and repotting?

I'd like to take a few air-layers next year. Should I repot it first, then air-layer? Or no layering and repotting in the same year?
I usually don't buy trees from regular nurseries (anymore) because of the potting soil... But I'm afraid that I'll have to prune it severely if I want to repot it in spring.
If I do that, I won't be able to take the large air-layers I want.

Anyways, I'm glad I found this tree!

 

[RKatzin]

Very nice Shishigashira! They are slow growers. I bought a pencil size tube start 10yrs ago and it's just now about the size of your big limb and ready for airlayers next year. l paid 20 bucks for it. What did you have to give up for this?
I've never gotten any cuttings to strike roots, but I have read that they will airlayer.
Never a problem repotting, seems to be hardy and durable in every respect.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

I would have bought this tree in a flash! nice find! very jealous!

Do they air-layer well?

they are known to air layer well. I have succeeded 1 for 1.

How do they take root pruning and repotting?

like any other maple

I'd like to take a few air-layers next year. Should I repot it first, then air-layer?

if it is not rootbound, and if you have no plans for the base, then there is no reason to repot it - just take your layers from a healthy tree and deal with repotting later

the tree is grafted, and the base is likely standard acer palmatum -- i view this as a plus! that base looks like it has lot of potential! You are only a few thread grafts (to be done below the current graft line) away from starting something long the lines of the omiya tree in the attaches photo, for example. it could be interesting to perform some low grafts while you take your layers! I have a few projects like this underway, and they are the ones I am most excited about!

 

[Fishtank307]

Very nice Shishigashira! They are slow growers. I bought a pencil size tube start 10yrs ago and it's just now about the size of your big limb and ready for airlayers next year. l paid 20 bucks for it. What did you have to give up for this?
I've never gotten any cuttings to strike roots, but I have read that they will airlayer.
Never a problem repotting, seems to be hardy and durable in every respect.

This one set me back 150 euros (168 USD). There were some smaller (1 inch trunks) grafted shishigashiras for 25 euros (28 USD) each, so this was a good deal imo. Also, japanese maples at bonsai nurseries are super expensive here in Belgium. Around 50 euros for a pencil thick deshojo for example. This has always stopped me from buying one! But then again, I usually only buy from amateur growers Seeing this shishigashira at a run-of-the-mill nursery was a surprise for sure.

There are a lot of good spots where I could air layer this one, so it seemed like a fun project Plus, I thinks the base of this tree has a lot of potential for an informal broom in a couple of years!

 

[Fishtank307]

I would have bought this tree in a flash! nice find! very jealous!



they are known to air layer well. I have succeeded 1 for 1.



like any other maple



if it is not rootbound, and if you have no plans for the base, then there is no reason to repot it - just take your layers from a healthy tree and deal with repotting later

the tree is grafted, and the base is likely standard acer palmatum -- i view this as a plus! that base looks like it has lot of potential! You are only a few thread grafts (to be done below the current graft line) away from starting something long the lines of the omiya tree in the attaches photo, for example. it could be interesting to perform some low grafts while you take your layers! I have a few projects like this underway, and they are the ones I am most excited about!

Alright, thanks for the advice! Good to know they're not a weak cultivar and layer well

I was thinking about using the base and trunk to create an informal broom. I don't know if I have the skill to start a project like the one you referred to. I'll see what my teacher thinks about it!
Also, links or pictures to your projects are appreciated

 

[Paulpash]

Air layer first, pot second. You should also get a lot of adventitious backbudding from the layers. Nice raw stock with plenty of options. Sell the layers and you will have a free tree

 

[Deleted member 21616]

Also, links or pictures to your projects are appreciated

the first 3 pictures are my trees that are being grown for their bases (the only picture I had handy from my thread: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-maples-in-montreal.33315/page-17). I plan to thread graft branches, and remove the undesirable trunks they have now.

the next 4 photos are potential avenues that i think are very possible for these bases. I don't know how the trees in these pictures were formed. But using a large base and thread grafting some branches to form new leaders is not an unrealistic way of arriving at similar ends.

the tree in the last photo belongs to vojtilla. 2 thread grafts (of any cultivar!), and one chop, and you're on your way to his silhouette! Then you just need time!

 

[Cattwooduk]

That's a nice looking tree!
I bought one of these a couple of years ago and have yet to actually do anything with it although I did take one air layer from it. It's pretty rootbound and all I've done is kept it fed and watered, but it's grown easily a foot and a half or more. Planning to take another air layer which I'm going to set up this weekend and then re-pot in spring.
Keeping an eye out for a bigger one but not come across many in my area.

 

[River's Edge]

Once established they are very vigorous in growth habit. Easy to threadgraft as long as you wire the whips during the early summer for the following early spring grafting. Be careful with the branches they break easily and should only be wired when very supple and young. ( new growth) . Here is a project underway with a similar trunk base! It started with an eight foot nursery sale tree! I reduced it on site in order to transport in the car! The sales person at the nursery was not very impressed when i cut off five feet to get it in the car easily!

 

[LanceMac10]

Once established they are very vigorous in growth habit. Easy to threadgraft as long as you wire the whips during the early summer for the following early spring grafting. Be careful with the branches they break easily and should only be wired when very supple and young. ( new growth) . Here is a project underway with a similar trunk base! It started with an eight foot nursery sale tree! I reduced it on site in order to transport in the car! The sales person at the nursery was not very impressed when i cut off five feet to get it in the car easily!

Sweet horts in shorts!! Buds on these small inter-node type JMs seem too fat to thread graft. Nice technique, (per usual).

 

[River's Edge]

View attachment 252743

Sweet horts in shorts!! Buds on these small inter-node type JMs seem too fat to thread graft. Nice technique, (per usual).

You are right again, these types of maples are a bit tricky! Should only be attempted by those willing to break the odd and or even branch. I usually wrap the buds and whip with floral wrap when passing through the hole to protect the bud tips and i drill a bit larger than usual hole to accommodate. Not the sticky type of floral tape! Tip! -round wooden toothpicks make a good filler for the hole once in place to press the whip in tight! Easy to cut off and then seal the hole with putty. Do not use liquid sealer it places a barrier between the sections that need to fuse.
No video allowed!. No names used! No animals were harmed in this non-production or allowed on set. No claims are made with respect to originality! The only thing is it works!

 

[AlainK]

the tree is grafted

Right, but I agree that it's a very nice find you can take many air-layers from. I've never air-layered on myself, but my friends have and they say it's easy.

And the graft is very neatly done. Were you to keep the "mother tree" as a patio plant or try to work it as a bonsai, you can get a very nice tree.

For 150€, that was a very good acquisition.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

then seal the hole with putty. Do not use liquid sealer it places a barrier between the sections that need to fuse

never thought of this, thank you!

have you ever tried thread grafting without cambium-to-cambium contact, and instead simply let the branch thicken so much that seals itself? just curious

 

[River's Edge]

never thought of this, thank you!

have you ever tried thread grafting without cambium-to-cambium contact, and instead simply let the branch thicken so much that seals itself? just curious

No, i have not tried that. All of my teachers emphasized the importance of creating firm contact. The contact is with the upper section of the hole. I would be concerned that the freshly cut cambium would deteriorate in air space between it and the threaded branch! Sealing the hole would then place some substance between the layers as well if it were not tight! In addition the section of the threadgraft that was scraped down to cambium would heal over before contact was made i suspect.
After all that, maybe someone should try it and see!

 

[Saddler]

never thought of this, thank you!

have you ever tried thread grafting without cambium-to-cambium contact, and instead simply let the branch thicken so much that seals itself? just curious

This is something I have wondered many times.

 

[0soyoung]

I make no effort establish cambium-to-cambium contact with thread grafts - the thread is as is. The only need for sealing is the same the use of cut pastes or whatever sort of moisture barrier is to prevent desiccation die back of the ring of cambium around the drilled hole which, otherwise, would prolong the time to affect the graft, IOW it only needs to be in place for the 15 days or so it takes for the cambium to form a new epiderm. It matters not if it should remain in place longer.

I use a dab of lanolin just because I have a lot of it around for other purposes. Vaseline would be roughly equivalent. But, I do this after pinning the thread against the top of the hole with toothpicks or wooden skewers. The cambium on the 'trunk' immediately beneath the hole tends to become somewhat starved and weak whereas the cambium above remains well supplied and grows more vigorously. So, I think the graft 'takes' faster in with this positioning. Regardless, the graft is affected because the hole though which it was threaded winds up being a tourniquet on the threaded stem.

I understand being concerned about cut pastes or the like interfering with the fusing, but I don't think it is actually anything to worry about as long as that stuff is not toxic to the tree.

 

[River's Edge]

I make no effort establish cambium-to-cambium contact with thread grafts - the thread is as is. The only need for sealing is the same the use of cut pastes or whatever sort of moisture barrier is to prevent desiccation die back of the ring of cambium around the drilled hole which, otherwise, would prolong the time to affect the graft, IOW it only needs to be in place for the 15 days or so it takes for the cambium to form a new epiderm. It matters not if it should remain in place longer.

I use a dab of lanolin just because I have a lot of it around for other purposes. Vaseline would be roughly equivalent. But, I do this after pinning the thread against the top of the hole with toothpicks or wooden skewers. The cambium on the 'trunk' immediately beneath the hole tends to become somewhat starved and weak whereas the cambium above remains well supplied and grows more vigorously. Regardless, the graft is affected because the hole though which it was threaded winds up being a tourniquet on the threaded stem.

I understand being concerned about cut pastes or the like interfering with the fusing, but I don't think it is actually anything to worry about as long as that stuff is not toxic to the tree.

The liquid seal paste does interfere and cause grafts to fail! Have been there and done that along with others! This is not something i suspect it is something i have experienced. One year i substituted the liquid sealer for cut past and every graft i performed with it failed! When i took the grafts apart it was obvious what the problem was.

 

[0soyoung]

The liquid seal paste does interfere and cause grafts to fail! Have been there and done that along with others! This is not something i suspect it is something i have experienced. One year i substituted the liquid sealer for cut past and every graft i performed with it failed! When i took the grafts apart it was obvious what the problem was.

Sounds like one out to avoid using that "liquid seal paste" in any circumstance.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

thanks guys! i had also only ever been taught the method @River's Edge explained, but like @Saddler also always wondered about what @0soyoung explained!

definitely going to try a thread graft without cambium-to-cambium contact! Thanks Oso!

Also when you mentioned “girdle” i realized that i can’t use the same cutting for a simultaneous thread graft and root graft, because once the thread graft is girdled by the trunk, energy won’t be travelling back down to its roots anymore! This is why people (e.g. sergio) uses approach grafts when root grafting!

thank youuuuu

 

[River's Edge]

Sounds like one out to avoid using that "liquid seal paste" in any circumstance.

Not actually, it was my fault for trying the product out in a purpose it was not intended for. The product works very well for sealing wounds, i have used it on maples very effectively and the other liquid sealer has a fungicide incorporated and works very well for the same purpose on susceptible trees. They do need to be applied thinly because the callus actually forms and rolls over the top of the liquid sealant rather than underneath as with the traditional cutpaste.