It depends...

Frank, just to thank you for taking the time to respond.
Not sure how the son bit got in ????
But not here to argue, just respond and educate.
Good Day
Anthony

Riversedgebonsai said:

Your observations speak eloquently of your state of mind. Simply do not put motivations behind others that do not exist. Some of my happiest times are with the trees in nature, in the garden, in the workshop. Some of my most prized trees were found not purchased. I grow from seed to learn the fundamentals first hand rather than from a book, or a video, or a teacher.
I have read many of the reflections of japanese, Chinese, European and North American masters and respect their individuality. I do not find it necessary to point out their faults, down times in life or human frailities.
One cannot increase ones stature by standing upon another. ( shed of dead trees)
Or as you did to me, suggest that i had difficulty with my children. That is merely a reflection of your thoughts. I did have difficulty when i lost my son too early in life to cancer, Also when he was diagnosed on his 20th birthday and struggled through cancer three times before passing away at 41. Freedom of Speech does not mean Freedom of Responsibility for the words we speak.

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Thank you, thank you, thank you for your well worded and heart felt response. I might not have been quite so eloquent given what you've been through as a father.

Er, Frank since you seemed to be reading in a passion.
You do realise one response, the first is to you.

The second is to Sorce, and has nothing to do with
anyone ?
The mum and dad bit.
Just to clarify.
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony said:

Er, Frank since you seemed to be reading in a passion.
You do realise one response, the first is to you.

The second is to Sorce, and has nothing to do with
anyone ?
The mum and dad bit.
Just to clarify.
Good Day
Anthony

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March 8, 2018 General Discussion. Your words, not mine.

I'm confused. What are we talking about?
Is it still about how different masters use different techniques, but still bring beautiful trees?

Sorce, you said; “Relying on one Japanese trained teacher is relying on their ability to remember that overseas education is merely supplemental to what they must know to fully move us into a position where we can become so set in correct ways. Utilizing the materials we have available to us here. Nursery Stock, Swamp Trees, an entirely independent education better learned by the guys who have been doing it for years. Vance, Zach.”

What. Are. You. Trying. To. Say?

What I took from this was 1). Having a single teacher who was trained in Japan, I have limited my potential knowledge of bonsai to that he may still remember from the time he was there.

2). Since he was trained in Japan, he is not familar with American trees.

3) those that are self taught using locally available native trees are necessarily better at those native trees than someone who may have been taught somewhere else.

That’s what I understood you to be trying to say. If I misunderstood, I apologize. But, if my understanding of your statement is what you intended... I’ll have to give some thought on how to proceed here. It appears that you have been given some authority on this forum. Im wondering if the henhouse is now under control of the foxes.

I would hate to see this site become like The Facebook site “Bonsai Trees”.

John in Toledo said:

I'm confused. What are we talking about?
Is it still about how different masters use different techniques, but still bring beautiful trees?

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Really gets confusing when I can't see who Frank is addressing. Someone on my ignore list. Sounds like I made a good choice in that decission. Sorry @Riversedgebonsai for your loss...can't begin to imagine. Though I have family who have buried children each ones grief is their own. Deepest heartfelt condolences.

Frank -----------

From March 8,

"Alexandra,

why does what Frank and you say, feel like ----- having had a rough time with children.

I believe one continues to draw on what one was taught, but either finds new
or different approaches / understandings.
At least that is what happens with me.
Good Day
Anthony"

__________________________________________________________________________________

Frank -

I don't know anything about your past.
Your name was included in a friendly jest, see the emoticons.
As in friendship.

Alexandra, I tease, known of her for years, though IBC, where she
used to chat with my brother-in-law K.
Sent her J.b.pine seeds, and other, to encourage her to take part in
the competition, she was very shy.
You can read my comments to her, here and there and in the j.b.pine
competition.

The idea was friendship and the rough times as when someone was
caught playing in the mud in Sunday clothes.

You could have just sent a p.m to clear the air, if unsure.
Good Day
Anthony

Cadillactaste said:

Really gets confusing when I can't see who Frank is addressing. Someone on my ignore list. Sounds like I made a good choice in that decission. Sorry @Riversedgebonsai for your loss...can't begin to imagine. Though I have family who have buried children each ones grief is their own. Deepest heartfelt condolences.

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Thank you.
Sorry for the confusion, your note contains a great suggestion. I believe it is one of the suggestions in Desiderata, "avoid vexations to the spirit".
Now in a modern context. The Ignore Button.

I tend to advice to choose the best reachable and payable master in the area. Depending on the level you want to reach you chose a good one or a very good one. As for the material you work on its the same. Choose material with potential and keep your goal in mind. Stick with your master and focus on applying and mastering the things learned. Listening to others is confusing and not adding progression unless you remember that mixing visions is not what makes things good. Keep an open mind, there are no bad teachers, there are just teachers that are not able to reach the goals you have set. So what path to choose? It depends...

Find a teacher who specializes in the types of trees you gravitate toward, and who's work you admire. Easy Peasy.
Ignore the naysayers who have the idea that if you don't start from seed or cuttings or nursery stock that you are not doing bonsai. They just don't get it, and I get sick of hearing that notion dragged out in these sorts of discussions, however subliminally they seem to be about it. Getting good stock to work with is really half the battle on the way to learning and growing.

JudyB said:

Getting good stock to work with is really half the battle on the way to learning and growing.

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That is what I call a commonsensical, down to earth comment.
Thanks, @JudyB .

I love all the conflicting advice and ways in the bonsai world!

I did for a long time follow the ways of one above others as best as I could. That’s without meeting anybody just written words. Now it’s progressively becoming more a mish mash. All the differing opinions and ways are interesting more than confusing. It sure does make a forum a more entertaining place to visit.
I like the depends too, it’s great. Don’t really want to do anything that could be done better by a robot.

wireme said:

I like the depends

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Are they the best brand? (Sorry, I couldn't help it)

Carol 83 said:

Are they the best brand? (Sorry, I couldn't help it)

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Absolutely, I know other people recommend other brands but they just don’t know any better. Anything other than depends will ultimately lead to root rot and loss of vigour and you don’t want that. (I couldn’t help it either)

... Some heavy points here. And after reading through, before and after beer.. I'd like to support and pledge my approval to "it depends.."

JudyB said:

Ignore the naysayers who have the idea that if you don't start from seed or cuttings or nursery stock that you are not doing bonsai.

Getting good stock to work with is really half the battle on the way to learning and growing.

Click to expand...

Two really excellent points here.

It’s funny, I have started seeds of a few species and it doesn’t feel like I’m doing bonsai with them at all. Sure it would be incredible if they become nice trees some day, but my older trees I have acquired give me much more of a feeling of doing bonsai then any seedling could.

The older better quality stock I have acquired has taught me more In a season or two than a seedling would have in ten years.

Nybonsai12 said:

Two really excellent points here.

It’s funny, I have started seeds of a few species and it doesn’t feel like I’m doing bonsai with them at all. Sure it would be incredible if they become nice trees some day, but my older trees I have acquired give me much more of a feeling of doing bonsai then any seedling could.

The older better quality stock I have acquired has taught me more In a season or two than a seedling would have in ten years.

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I agree. The whole foundation of bonsai was the monks who collected trees they found up in the mountains that had been naturally dwarfed by the elements. They didn’t start with seeds. They started with collected trees.

After a period of time, all the easily collectible trees were gone, so they turned to other possibilities, such as garden trees.

Today’s stock is produced by seed, cuttings, layers, and grafting. And the process is done on a large scale. They don’t fuss over a half dozen seeds, they do them by the hundreds,or thousands! Once they germinate, they call them. Discarding any poor ones. Then plant in the ground. Maybe apply wire. Let grow several years, do cut backs. Let grow some more years, do cut backs.

Finally after a decade, they dig them, and maybe 2 percent are deemed worthy for further development, the majority are sent on for mass comercalization, and the poor ones discarded.

The difference is, these were cutback and rough styled for bonsai. Our nursery stock is produced the same way, but the styling they get is for large landscapes. Pretty much just the opposite of what we want for bonsai.

Adair M said:

Sorce, you said; “Relying on one Japanese trained teacher is relying on their ability to remember that overseas education is merely supplemental to what they must know to fully move us into a position where we can become so set in correct ways. Utilizing the materials we have available to us here. Nursery Stock, Swamp Trees, an entirely independent education better learned by the guys who have been doing it for years. Vance, Zach.”

What. Are. You. Trying. To. Say?

What I took from this was 1). Having a single teacher who was trained in Japan, I have limited my potential knowledge of bonsai to that he may still remember from the time he was there.

2). Since he was trained in Japan, he is not familar with American trees.

3) those that are self taught using locally available native trees are necessarily better at those native trees than someone who may have been taught somewhere else.

That’s what I understood you to be trying to say. If I misunderstood, I apologize. But, if my understanding of your statement is what you intended... I’ll have to give some thought on how to proceed here. It appears that you have been given some authority on this forum. Im wondering if the henhouse is now under control of the foxes.

I would hate to see this site become like The Facebook site “Bonsai Trees”.

Click to expand...

I Fucking Love you Adair!

I always will!

MY apologies, for how this form of communication makes far a clash of the EXACT SAME PASSION!

What you said was enlightening....
About the Volcanic Soil...

If one of our returning masters fell into the Japanese way so strictly that he himself can not successfully collect, or convert, or otherwise use our local material....
He is not wrong ....However, he is suited to a "finished APL" Bonsai practitioner.

But Boon, Ryan, Owen, the ones that show they are fully invested in really moving AMERICAN Bonsai forward...
Those are the guys more suited who do Bonsai with a "Pre" in front of it!

Just a general "select your teacher correctly" bit of stupid advice that I think about!

And this..."best way to learn"...

I just feel that...even a seed in a cone of a JBP meant to be Bonsai one day, already is bonsai to me.
It can be ground grown without ever seeing volcanic soil...
To me this is a huge part of Bonsai that gets shuffled away in semantics.

But if I were to "apprentice"..
I might rather "apprentice" with a Japanese Field Grower".

That's my realm. I just still see it as Bonsai.
And we have few if any really teaching the ropes of this endeavor.

Sorry for the Stacey Comment especially.
Since now I realize even more how passionate you are about this! Responding with it in your heart....rather than...ahem...shit in your skull!

Love Love!

Sorce

@sorce ...wow...you went there. Shaking head. Good thing you apologized. Somehow I missed that remark of Stacey. My eyes bugged out my head just now.

Most know...he was the one guy who...I once defended...until I learned more of the man he was. He is also one I openly show...I hold no respect for. Not that it means a hill of beans. I don't hate the man per say...just his actions. (((Sigh)))