Shohin Okinawa Juniper

Velodog2

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Smoke has me on ignore, but I would like to know more about that particular tree if he knows anything about it. The foliage looks like shimpaku, which doesn’t usually grow on a straight trunk. In fact, the foliage looks like it was grafted on. Even the deadwood branches don’t look “natural” to me. They look as if they were created by drilling a hole in the trunk, and gluing them in.

Don’t get me wrong, I think the image it makes is beautiful! I just wonder how much of that tree was “engineered”. Whoever did it was really good.

Well now that I’ve atoned for disparagement, I’ll turn around and agree that it is somehow odd looking, although again, beautiful overall. Odd both in the angle and attachment of the branches and again that damned foliage, And as for having needles, rereading the post I see that Smoke more or less presented it as thus, so there. Enough, I swear, I won’t meantion that tree again!
 

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I would like to know more about that particular tree

@Adair M It is a ground juniper (a.k.a. creeping juniper), Juniperus horizontalis, from Nick Lenz's book "Bonsai from the Wild". It does not say anything specific about the tree other than the photo description "This ground juniper trained upright has a natural appeal". It is page 75 in my soft cover copy - in his chapter on ground junipers.
 
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Brian Van Fleet

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I have two shore junipers by my koi pond. I cannot distinguish any difference between them and a "tosho" needle juniper that I got from Gary Ishii. I don't think Gary's tree is a true tosho like you would see in Japan because the needles are too soft. I have always heard that real tosho is quite prickly and the needles are stiff and can even draw blood like a cactus spine. I love the way it looks however even if it is not a true tosho.
True tosho absolutely draws blood. Here is one...true tosho, true yamadori; collected in Japan, now in Bama:
B516040A-8A52-4436-96CC-07B40990CBE6.jpeg
Tosho is straight up J. rigida. It has thinner spiny needles, spaced a bit further apart than the congested arrangement of softer foliage on Shore juniper, which is j. rigida x conferta, or “hai-nezu”, in Japan.
 

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True tosho absolutely draws blood.

Thank you for posting this. I can say without reservation that the tree I got from Gary does not look like that. The foliage is much softer and not as pin-like. I would never contradict Gary - who has more bonsai experience in his thumb than I have in totality - but I just don't think it's the same tree. Maybe he has a special story of where he got his juniper cultivar? I know that he values it highly and he considers it one of his valuable cultivar lines. All his "tosho" trees are grafts of this single cultivar. I will have to ask him next time I see him.

Interestingly, here is the Wikipedia text for Juniperus conferta (the supposed species type of the subject tree in this thread):

Juniperus conferta (shore juniper) is a species of juniper, native to Japan, where it grows on sand dunes. It is often treated as a variety or subspecies of Juniperus rigida.
 

Adair M

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@Adair M It is a ground juniper (a.k.a. creeping juniper), Juniperus horizontalis, from Nick Lenz's book "Bonsai from the Wild". It does not say anything specific about the tree other than the photo description "This ground juniper trained upright has a natural appeal". It is page 75 in my soft cover copy - in his chapter on ground junipers.
Ah! Then that makes some sense! If the trunk were staked upright, then any new branches would like to be down along the ground. Thus, they would come off the tree in a downward angle. If you look carefully, even the apex branches are growing down. On a “normal” juniper, they’d be trying to grow up.

I guess that’s why the tree looked “strange” to me. It’s a ground cover that been forced to grow straight and tall.

Still, very well done.

Thanks, BNut for the info!
 

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@Bonsai Nut Seeing the two side by side, it’s clear that there is a difference.

I had an interesting conversation with Ryan Bell a few months ago (they are all interesting, BTW) about tosho. Thought you’d appreciate some more clarity and insight on why Gary might call it tosho.

J. rigida is the needle juniper called Tosho by Bonsai people.
J. rigida conferta is the shore juniper sold as soft needle tosho by bonsai people, or Hai Nezu. Hai Nezu means "creeping Rigida".

Ready for it to get interesting?

“Incidentally, the kanji for Nezu is the same as Tosho, but Nezu is a distinct term and usually written using kana alone.

Incidentally? Tosho as a term is fairly unique to Bonsai. Most people in Japan call Rigida "Nezu". I think it's a play on words. A pun.....Tosho also means ‘abattoir....slaughterhouse’."
 
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J. rigida conferta is the shore juniper sold as soft needle tosho by bonsai people

I was so curious about this that I actually grew a cutting off Gary's tree so that I could compare it (growing on its own roots) versus the shore junipers I have by my koi pond. After your explanation, I am certain they are the same. Gary must have meant "soft needle tosho" when he sold it to me.

His mother has an amazing one on display at their nursery... not for sale :) It is her favorite tree :)
 

Shun

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I've seen the real tosho and they are deadly! My j. Rigida conferta is bonsai apprentice friendly..

Not a lot of explosive growth coming out of it but healthy new tips on almost all branchlets.

Hope to be able to pot it next season and continue to develop pads. The outline of the bonsai is there.. should I make the green mass bigger or is it ok considering the size of the deadwood?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Hey @Bonsai Nut will you see or speak with Gary Ishii in the next couple months? Think you could procure some Awaji JBP seed from him for the 6-year JBP challenge?
 
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Hey @Bonsai Nut will you see or speak with Gary Ishii in the next couple months? Think you could procure some Awaji JBP seed from him for the 6-year JBP challenge?

I can ask. I just saw him at the GSBF show last month. His nursery is only about 30 minutes from where I live. One more reason to visit :)
 

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@Bonsai Nut Seeing the two side by side, it’s clear that there is a difference.

I had an interesting conversation with Ryan Bell a few months ago (they are all interesting, BTW) about tosho. Thought you’d appreciate some more clarity and insight on why Gary might call it tosho.

J. rigida is the needle juniper called Tosho by Bonsai people.
J. rigida conferta is the shore juniper sold as soft needle tosho by bonsai people, or Hai Nezu. Hai Nezu means "creeping Rigida".

Ready for it to get interesting?

“Incidentally, the kanji for Nezu is the same as Tosho, but Nezu is a distinct term and usually written using kana alone.

Incidentally? Tosho as a term is fairly unique to Bonsai. Most people in Japan call Rigida "Nezu". I think it's a play on words. A pun.....Tosho also means ‘abattoir....slaughterhouse’."
Ah ha! That explains Danny Coffey’s tree he had for sale at the Shohin show in Kannapolis. It looked like Tosho, and Danny said it was Tosho, but he was able to keep the needles soft!
 

Shun

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Here in Brazil people dont call it tosho.. but the name Okinawa Juniper is widespread regarding this cultivar.. is it the same up in the states?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I can ask. I just saw him at the GSBF show last month. His nursery is only about 30 minutes from where I live. One more reason to visit :)
If you do, I would love to buy some seeds. I’d be grateful if you were willing to mail me a handful.
 

defra

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So i was reading all your posts about the tosho junipers and today i was at a local nursery and as i walked i noticed this thing:
20171123_150547.jpg
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They made it grow up against a metal frame and like the pic from smoke all branches grew straight down
 

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If you do, I would love to buy some seeds. I’d be grateful if you were willing to mail me a handful.

I will definitely go visit him and talk JBP - in addition to Tosho. I'll see what seeds he has and what he is willing to part with :) Since you brought up the idea, you get first dibs, but I get second! :)
 

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So i was reading all your posts about the tosho junipers and today i was at a local nursery and as i walked i noticed this thing... They made it grow up against a metal frame and like the pic from smoke all branches grew straight down

My understanding with these sprawling junipers is that if you train them up, they will put girth on the trunk. Your tree is the same cultivar I have growing by my koi pond.
 

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Here in Brazil people dont call it tosho.. but the name Okinawa Juniper is widespread regarding this cultivar.. is it the same up in the states?

I have never heard anyone use the term "Okinawa juniper". "Tosho" is usually used referring to true Japanese needle juniper. Conferta most people refer to by its common name "shore juniper". Tosho is almost unknown here in the USA, but conferta is a widely available sub-species with several different commercial cultivars.
 
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