Anyone use aluminum>copper because aluminum is cooler on the shoots?

I just went to my first bonsai group/workshop thing (it was incredible!!) and this came up, multiple people said they did it (I'm in the 'semi-tropics', 9a/9b Tampa Bay FL area) It's never crossed my mind, but I've only been doing this a year and certainly don't catch everything that's going on with my trees, how big a difference is there between copper and aluminum wrt heat? Or black v clear zip-ties? Am going to err to aluminum/clear for all future purchases, just because there's gotta be *some* difference!

[edit- I should clarify that I'm thinking of supple/fresher shoots when asking this, I doubt it matters much on something with any real amount of lignification, however I set shoots on my bougies when they're real small just because they grow so fast and they set-in right quickly if you shape them while they're lignifying!]

SU2, Which weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of Lead? Which is hotter, 100 degree copper or 100 degree aluminum? Heat distribution difference is at most a few minutes between them. The critical point is where, which is most applicable. Typically, deciduous or fast evergreen is Al. and conifer is Cu. and most everything else is talking points (splitting hairs) ;-)

garywood said:

SU2, Which weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of Lead? Which is hotter, 100 degree copper or 100 degree aluminum? Heat distribution difference is at most a few minutes between them. The critical point is where, which is most applicable. Typically, deciduous or fast evergreen is Al. and conifer is Cu. and most everything else is talking points (splitting hairs) ;-)

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Aluminum is sissy wire at any temperature.

That's why I use copper.
It's warmer in winter.
Actually they are both good conductors of heat,cold and electricity.
There should be no difference in heat.

I just use aluminum because it's cheaper and still gets the job done. When I have to do big bends I usually use a combination of my largest gauge al wire + some guy wires. Granted most of my trees are deciduous though.

Conductivity wise, I'd be very surprised if it made a any difference. Aluminium and Copper are both really good conductors of heat (think about what pots are made out of), and even fat bonsai wire is just too thin to make a difference.

Color-wise, I could see *some* difference, especially if copper is oxidized and the aluminum is "silver" colored (i.e. not anodized to look like oxidized copper). But again, I bet that the skinniness of the wire will keep all that much heat from accumulating.

Easy test -- take equal lengths (say, 6") of 4mm gray aluminum and oxidized copper wire. Place under the noonday sun for some amount of time. Take temperature readings every 15 mins or so (if the wire is fat enough, a laser thermometer would be the most efficient). A lower tech way might involve some temperature sensitive paper/putty for a fat thumb sense of how the wire will react with the tissue of the tree.

If the first test shows some significant difference in the temperature increase of the wire, then it might make sense to think about how you can use thinner copper to get the same job done (so really it should be like 3mm copper vs. 4mm aluminum maybe). But again, I bet the difference will be minimal.

Hmmm... I really don't think the temperature that the wire get's is important. Generally speaking use copper for conifer and aluminum for deciduous. Aluminum or Galvanized steel for tie downs. Maybe more importantly for cooling a plant is how you water. Water is a major cooling system for plants, one tip is to make sure your water is running cool before you water on a hot day. Let the water run for a bit before putting on your trees.

The only way I could see this being true is if the aluminum was bright and not discolored. The silver color may not soak up the heat from the sun as fast but would eventually reach the same temperature. Like black shirt vs white shirt

It is so much fun to brainstorm!!

Gotta do the experiment --> measure what actually happens.

Theory without experiment is like fucking into a barrel

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Buy one of these things and check your trees. There are cheaper ones, but this one has an accuracy of 1.5F which is in the ball park of the accuracy necessary to measure the effects you guys are imagining.

Please post your results.
TIA

Thanks for so much great insight guys, was half-expecting "stop splitting hairs" as the only reply

yenling83 said:

Hmmm... I really don't think the temperature that the wire get's is important. Generally speaking use copper for conifer and aluminum for deciduous. Aluminum or Galvanized steel for tie downs. Maybe more importantly for cooling a plant is how you water. Water is a major cooling system for plants, one tip is to make sure your water is running cool before you water on a hot day. Let the water run for a bit before putting on your trees.

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Great advice, I already do this but more people should know- the insides of most/all hoses are lined with all kinds of stuff and if you've got water just sitting in it for extended periods (as the hose isn't 'empty' when it's turned off) then *something* is coming along with the water when you turn it back on. I'm lucky in that the FL sun heats the hose and the water sitting in it, so I just spray it at far-away landscape plants until the handle goes from warm to cool, then I fill my watering bucket

I use aluminum for rapidly growing trees, where it is applied late winter or sometime in spring and cut off by end of summer. This is usually deciduous trees. Aluminum is cheaper than copper.

I use copper where wire will need to be on for more than a year. Or where I need greater bending power. Copper is not as cheap as aluminum. Usually use it on junipers, pines, spruce and other trees with no or slow memory.

Because copper has more strength, there is the occasional tree where I use both on the same tree. All depends on the branch I want to bend.

And aluminum is used to tie trees into pots.

Adair M said:

And aluminum is used to tie trees into pots.

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I saw this at a workshop last month, why would aluminum be superior for this use?

SU2 said:

I saw this at a workshop last month, why would aluminum be superior for this use?

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Because copper is expensive and for this application doesn’t work any better. And some plants don’t like copper in the root ball.

I use Aluminum all the way accros the bonsai experience. I cannot afford good quality copper wire that has been anealed and my skills are such that I cannot put the wire on and not have to move the branch around from where it was originally set in place. I have found in my experience that it is harder on the bark especially trees with thin bark that is easily damaged. My hands can no longer take the stress of bending the stuff and when the tree is done needing the wire copper is way more difficult to remove. I used to make excuses for using Aluminum being ashamed for using it, I not longer feel that way. It is true you have to use heavier gauge wire to do the same job that can be done with lighter gauge copper but the heavier Aluminum is easier to bend and less likely to damage the bark going on.

It seems my life is made up of doing stuff the wrong way with the wrong materials that everyone thinks is stupid. I use Aluminum wire, I repot in the Summer, I grow Mugo Pines, and I pinch Junipers. I think Akadama is a waste of money, over rated, breaks down too fast, I don't use it and I use Pine Bark mulch in my soil mixes. I feel that the mystique of something being from Japan does not necessarily make it superior. I am likely to break all of the rules of style and design in the same tree using instinct more than a by the numbers approach. l am considered miserable and hard to get along with because I have first thought my way through all of the above and second; become very stubborn in adhering to those principals I agree with and attacking those I don't. I have found that the way I work works and I have found no reason to change it except when that change has been proven to me to be better.

Adair M said:

And some plants don’t like copper in the root ball.

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This to me is the most important reason. Copper is toxic to the roots of some plants. Aluminum is not.

I'd much rather be able to just wire trees into pots without thinking about it than spend a lot of time and energy trying to figure out which trees really don't like copper on their roots and which ones can tolerate it.

Vance, we all do the best we can with what we have.

The copper I use can still be bent after it’s applied. What’s nice is I don’t have to “overbend” to get it to stay where I want it. I find that it the “overbending” to compensate for the wire’s inability to hold that causes the most damage.

I have watched Daisaku Nomoto wire the bends in as he wires. Amazing! I’m not that good. I wire, then bend.

Back to the original post. If you are that concerned about a degree or two either way, for regular wiring, you are looking WAY to deep into it and will likely kill plants with to much TLC...

For conversation, I see no reason not to use copper to wire in a plant other then cost. Most use modern substrate and with all that water I see no reason to believe for a moment the copper would break down and harm a plant. Think about how long copper household pipes last...

Grimmy

I have a personal reason for not using copper other than I have found for my needs Aluminum is better.

I hook all my copper up to a car battery to keep it warm in the winter.