Why I Love to Clip and Grow

RKatzin

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I had a bonsai moment today, while doing some thinning on my big Juniper. It was not about the tree, but about why I love the method of clip and grow.
It's like working with a teenager. They're rough and crude, and out of control most of the time. Then one day you realize there's a fine young man standing in front of you. Yeah, it's something like that.
 

RKatzin

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Wow, what narrow mindedness. Confining and restrictive. Really Adair? Wow, how do you respond to someone who says bullshit like that? You know there's a lot of people that utilize this method. I'm not opposed to wiring. I've never told anyone not to use wire, though I think that a lot of wiring I see should not be done or was not necessary. To each his own. Your flat line boxed in response is below the level of respect I have given you.
 

Vance Wood

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There is a place in bonsai for both techniques, I don't understand why there has to be some sort of division over this. Those who wire usually find it unnecessary to clip and grow. They can usually get where they want to go without the slower clip and grow technique, even though doing so will eliminate some of the artistic possibilities C&G can afford the artist that wire cannot usually produce. The C&G people cannot produce the kind of movement into a branch or trunk that can be obtained through wire but they are so religiously bound to the technique they find thinking about using wire almost as sinful. Sorry for the religion metaphor but in this case it is relevant and not proselytizing.
 

RKatzin

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Thanks Vance, I agree and I do use wire when it's called for, just not as a go to method. It's the trend, but what did they do before they had wire? I can still catch a fish without a rod and reel, but you know, that's the way it's done. Fish taste the same either way, but I think I have more fun. Phew! I thought that's what it was all about anyway. I had a fun moment and wanted to share the experience. Funniest damn thing of all, you're gonna love this, I was working on a tree you told me to do something with, using advice from an Adair thread and the whole side just popped. I actually saw a few wiring needs, but, oh good grief, do I even want to mention hand bending? Um, better not.
 

music~maker

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There is a place in bonsai for both techniques, I don't understand why there has to be some sort of division over this. Those who wire usually find it unnecessary to clip and grow. They can usually get where they want to go without the slower clip and grow technique, even though doing so will eliminate some of the artistic possibilities C&G can afford the artist that wire cannot usually produce. The C&G people cannot produce the kind of movement into a branch or trunk that can be obtained through wire but they are so religiously bound to the technique they find thinking about using wire almost as sinful. Sorry for the religion metaphor but in this case it is relevant and not proselytizing.

Couldn't agree more. I love clip and grow when it's appropriate, but there really are some things you're not going to be able to do without wire. So for me, a hybrid approach works best. Not sure why people need to be so black & white about things. There's a time and a place for everything. Just more tools in the toolbox ... use what is needed to accomplish the job at hand.

For example, I can't imagine growing either larch or maple without wire. The juvenile growth is long and straight, and wiring the tree tip to tip allows you to build a natural looking frame for the next seasons foliage to grow onto. No way you can do that effectively (or at least efficiently) without wire, imho.

But something like juniper procumbens? They grow so slowly, and branches stay flexible long enough that there's really no need to wire them very often. You can just gradually scale them up and build them into excellent raw material just by occasionally snipping a branch here or there. You occasionally want to wire them to set a direction, but then you can go long intervals (sometimes years!) without doing so. I love growing them this way!

So for me, it's both species dependent as well as situation-dependent.

I will say this, though - I think it's pretty limiting to only know how to do one or the other. I can always tell when I get a tree that was developed by someone who focuses more on wiring and pruning than on growth. It usually takes me a couple of seasons to get those trees to come out of their shell. But when a tree is never wired, it's usually not going to look nearly as natural. Real-world branches bend and twist, and wire is the easiest way I know of to easily re-create that. I find trees that are never wired can look kind of artificial.

Sometimes I'm amazed at the things people find to argue with each other about. :rolleyes:
 

Adair M

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Lol!!!

Bonsai always need cutting back from time to time. Wire cannot substitute for that.

If you don't use wire, then you are stuck with what the tree gives you. Generally speaking, shoots grow straight in one direction. They might extend 6, 8, 10, 12 inches, straight out. Once they get longer than that, gravity puts a curve on.

So, let's say you cut back to the first internode. The branch will be straight from the point where it started as a bud to the first internode. Let's say it was a maple, and at that internode, two new shoots develop. You let them grow out, then cut them back to the first internode. As the tree grows, you continue this. The branches will resemble tangles of straight lines! Big trees don't do that, they're all curved. The only way to impart a curve in the section between where the branch starts and the first internode is to bend it. While it's reasonably young. You can use wire, guy wires, string, zip ties... whatever. Wire works best.

One more thought...

No other art wraps tree branches with wire spirals. It's unique to bonsai.

I realize that not every tree must be wired. But most are. (Or should be at one time or another.)
 

MichaelS

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Wiring is bonsai.

Bonsai is wiring.
Pruning is bonsai. Bonsai is pruning.

The most fundamental part of bonsai is, was and always will be the cut. You can make a masterpiece with a pair of scissors only. You can't with wire only. Many times wire brings artificiality. Pruning rarely does.
 
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BobbyLane

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I heard peter chan who is a well known bonsai artist say, that bonsai wire has been around for 40 odd years...that doesnt seem long to me. Is this true? I never knew that. So what were folks using to shape and style before this period? Just curious...i use both clip n grow and wire.
I do love the angular movement you get with clip n grow alone and try to use this more n more and try to use wire to position branches rather than bend. I also agree that once a tree has has been done with wire once or twice then clip n grow will be enough down the line.
 
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MichaelS

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="Adair M, post: 493741, member: 13405"]

So, let's say you cut back to the first internode. The branch will be straight from the point where it started as a bud to the first internode. Let's say it was a maple, and at that internode, two new shoots develop. You let them grow out, then cut them back to the first internode. As the tree grows, you continue this. The branches will resemble tangles of straight lines! Big trees don't do that, they're all curved

This shows a basic ignorance of what actually happens. By the time you have made the third cut the prunings from say 3 and more years ago coalesce into a smooth undulating line not angular zig-zagging. The movement in natural branches happens like this mainly not because of weight. If you look a natural maple you don't see too much in the way of opposite branches. One usually dies (and breaks) off (enter pruning). The curve comes from growth over a change of direction. This is how branches are formed. There are almost no trees with flat fan shaped branches like your black pine.



No other art wraps tree branches with wire spirals. It's unique to bonsai.

This has nothing much to do with anything.
 

Anthony

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@MichaelS ,

Just sifu {Adair ] trying to be controversial. Take him in stride.

Down here it was noticed that the impatient and somewhat controlling personalities use wiring.
Laid back tends to use Grow and Clip.

Grow and Clip is supposed to age more naturally, than wire.

We don't use wiring because we start with seedlings, ground grow and continue to refine with
pruning.
Wire has to obtained and after use, melted and re-shaped back into wire.
[ we have the jewellery equipment ]
We are lazy.

Just saw a small Chinese serissa, almost strangled by wire, will take many years to grow
out of those scars.
Good Day
Anthony
 

sorce

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Let's review Clip and Grow for the Wire Fanatic.

Put on 12 inches of wire to move the first internode.
Remove wire, 11inches of which was a complete waste of time, money, and effort.

Then Clip and Grow.

And argue to hide their embarrassment!

Sorce
 

Adair M

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Let's review Clip and Grow for the Wire Fanatic.

Put on 12 inches of wire to move the first internode.
Remove wire, 11inches of which was a complete waste of time, money, and effort.

Then Clip and Grow.

And argue to hide their embarrassment!

Sorce
That's hilarious!

Sorce, I have shown trees at the highest level in the USA. And haven't been embarrassed.

You?

I first learned to wire bonsai about 45 years ago. And it seemed to be a standard practice then. So, wiring has been around a long time.

MichaelS, I have seen many bonsai trees shaped by pruning, (shearing actually) where only the Silohette was shaped. The branch structure under the canopy was a mess.

Yes, maple trees do shed a lot of branches. I never said that cutting back isn't important. It is. It's how you build taper.

Most all pines around here produce branches with horizontal pads.
 

Vance Wood

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I utilize both methods.
All on the same tree sometimes.
This is amazing! Why would someone avoid a technique that works, regardless of what that technique. It's like the old Karate schools debate about whose Karate is better and one guy Bruce beat them all by combining all of them.
 

Adair M

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Here is a picture of a very old Jeffry Pine from up in the Sierra Mountains of California. And to the left is a young one.

Note how the branches on the old trunk form pads. The branches hang down.

Note on the young tree on the left how the younger growth at the top the branches grow up at an angle. Then suddenly, lower down, they grow out horizontally. What did that? Snow. The weight of snow.

IMG_1225.JPG

Another view of the ancient tree:

IMG_1218.JPG

A different tree, definitely shows it's branches as pads:

IMG_1193.JPG
 
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