Advice for Trident

MapleGuru

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In defense of my friend Smoke, I have also been posting a very long time on bonsai boards. He's not wrong about becoming weary of "what should I do with this tree?" posts. They sometimes lead nowhere good as the original poster gets their back up at suggestions, fails to grasp what is being said, doesn't care what's being said because "they read somewhere that's not how it's done," etc.

Smoke is also in a tough spot in his life. He doesn't need slack, just understanding.

In any case, you could go many different ways with it--taller tree, chop into mame, etc. It is up to you to make that overall decision. It is key to anything else we can offer. Without a decision on the foundation of the tree, blueprints for how to build the rest of it are futile.

So, what do you want in the end BIG bonsai, small bonsai, etc. A word of advice--the shorter the tree, the more powerful the trunk looks...

Im not claiming that he is wrong for being weary of "what should I do with this tree" posts. Im claiming he is accusing me of wanting help..........not because Im a rookie, but because Im lazy and this is wrong. Its combative, degrading, and can lead to defensive responses.

After a few responses, I can admit my original post was way to broad...........because you guys are looking for specifics. Unfortunately, I wasn't looking for specifics(because its my first bonsai, who cares if its shohin or 3ft tall?), I was looking for broad ranging answers.

I was looking for:
1)do root work, place it in the ground, and then chop it after a few years of growth
2)Chop it about right here to make it a large bonsai and this is what to expect from such a chop. You may need to wire.
3)Chop it right here to make a shohin........but be careful how low you cut it.
4)I would thread graft a branch here and here and here's why
5)I would do root work now and chop it at the same time and try to see if you can get it to grow this way
6)I would do nothing right now. You don't have enough taper in that second section. Another few years of growth and then I would chop.

I thought that hearing what experts would do would help me make my mind up.
 

MapleGuru

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I think I pick this one to quote :) I know I would chop where @Brian Van Fleet showed and grow a new leader. I tend to favor larger trees, as you can get a lot more detail into them(more feasting of the eyes). You could always send it my way. I have been the lookout for a trident!

Thank you! That was helpful............that you can get a lot more detail into them when they are bigger. Little things like that was exactly what I had in mind. Not only where you would cut, but the why. Thanks again!
 

MapleGuru

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Time to break this down for those of us who care to benefit from this site .



A nice trunk...and "guru", likely sparked this seemingly snarky comment....
Smoke is a Maple Guru... So he can say what he wants, the way he wants....

He is just asking for a give and take....
Instead of just a take and take.

That's fair.

Beyond that....there is NOTHING mean...
And that first part only SEEMS mean.



This...is asking you to ingratiate(thanks Lance!) yourself into our Crazy Community.

Get hazed!



What he was trying to say is....
It takes more than that to cure....


That one red line cant cure this!

It takes time!

Time Smoke was likely more than willing to put in...
So long as he had an inkling of an idea you'd be here in ten years to watch his time make fruit.

Anyway @MapleGuru .....
I got no problems with you...
Smoke is a tuff nut to crack as it may be.
The tuffest. Hardest to understand.

I know none of this matters now....
For future reference for future preNuts!

Sorce
Time to break this down for those of us who care to benefit from this site .



A nice trunk...and "guru", likely sparked this seemingly snarky comment....
Smoke is a Maple Guru... So he can say what he wants, the way he wants....

He is just asking for a give and take....
Instead of just a take and take.

That's fair.

Beyond that....there is NOTHING mean...
And that first part only SEEMS mean.



This...is asking you to ingratiate(thanks Lance!) yourself into our Crazy Community.

Get hazed!



What he was trying to say is....
It takes more than that to cure....


That one red line cant cure this!

It takes time!

Time Smoke was likely more than willing to put in...
So long as he had an inkling of an idea you'd be here in ten years to watch his time make fruit.

Anyway @MapleGuru .....
I got no problems with you...
Smoke is a tuff nut to crack as it may be.
The tuffest. Hardest to understand.

I know none of this matters now....
For future reference for future preNuts!

Sorce


Points well taken and understood. Just to explain the mapleguru moniker. I know it should mean that Im some kind of teacher or expert in maples. Im not, but when it comes to bonsai, that's exactly where my ever so minimal expertise lies............with maples.

I have about 30 tridents and then several over varieties. Sazanami, Beni Schchihenge, Bloodgood, Nishiki Gawa, Ukigumo, Sango Kaku, Koto No Ito..........for a total of almost 50. I don't count anymore. I just baby and talk to them like any other normal bonsai person. :)
 

rockm

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Im not claiming that he is wrong for being weary of "what should I do with this tree" posts. Im claiming he is accusing me of wanting help..........not because Im a rookie, but because Im lazy and this is wrong. Its combative, degrading, and can lead to defensive responses.

After a few responses, I can admit my original post was way to broad...........because you guys are looking for specifics. Unfortunately, I wasn't looking for specifics(because its my first bonsai, who cares if its shohin or 3ft tall?), I was looking for broad ranging answers.

I was looking for:
1)do root work, place it in the ground, and then chop it after a few years of growth
2)Chop it about right here to make it a large bonsai and this is what to expect from such a chop. You may need to wire.
3)Chop it right here to make a shohin........but be careful how low you cut it.
4)I would thread graft a branch here and here and here's why
5)I would do root work now and chop it at the same time and try to see if you can get it to grow this way
6)I would do nothing right now. You don't have enough taper in that second section. Another few years of growth and then I would chop.

I thought that hearing what experts would do would help me make my mind up.
Well, see here's the problem. ALL of those things depend on what you want to wind up with. There is no simple advice, until you decide what you want to have down the road. That's the way bonsai works. A trunk chop now, would negate a large bonsai down the road, as well as where you will do thread grafts. No use doing a thread graft on trunk that is going to be removed...
 

Saddler

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[QUOTE="MapleGuru, post: 481867, member: 18311"
So Im not sure what my ideas were other than shohin or continue to let grow. That's why I asked. Maybe someone else saw something I didn't. I really don't care if I make a shohin or if it becomes a 3ft tall specimen. The excitement of having a "bonsai"(I know, this isn't a bonsai) is a thrill, just in an of itself. I just wanted to see what other people would do..........if it were their tree.
Maybe I take your opinion, maybe I leave it. [/QUOTE]

Without seeing the tree in person or even from different angles, I would trim the appropriate roots and plant it on a tile/board in the ground. Let it grow until I found a bud lower then the first chop but higher then the yellow line and use that as the next section keeping the internodes short in the appropriate location for the next chop. Root work, trunk chop, grow and repeat until you can see the tree in five years time. There is a good chance it will turn out a mess. That is how you learn. Learn what you did right and what you did wrong on each cut. I have done this to one tree in particular that four years and two chops later looked horrible. It is much better with a third chop and two more years, it looks positively mediocre now. One way of learning is just by doing. When you find a specific problem, researching that specific issue will be more useful to you then learning generalities. If you are worried you will screw up your first tree, then practice on another and grow this one out for five or ten years. Pick a path and go for it, it isn't that hard.
 

namnhi

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For some reason I don't like the trunk movement on this one. You got a straight section then the next section appear to move away from the nebari. Looks very unstable.... for that reason I think I would cut that off and build a small powerful tree.
 

Cadillactaste

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VAFisher

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This morning I had to do a double take...seen this tree elsewhere. Where? Well...the BUNKER! Where I went because Al said he was going to be spending time there.

Al has some good stuff said.
https://bonsaial.wordpress.com/2017/08/14/short-leg-productions-presents-a-trident-maple-conundrum/

Interesting. I would not have guessed that.

I did think that the tree needed a branch at that first direction change and wondered if a chop like Brian suggested might force the tree to back bud at that site. Obviously Smoke thinks not.
 

Saddler

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This morning I had to do a double take...seen this tree elsewhere. Where? Well...the BUNKER! Where I went because Al said he was going to be spending time there.

Al has some good stuff said.
https://bonsaial.wordpress.com/2017/08/14/short-leg-productions-presents-a-trident-maple-conundrum/

Wow! that was very informative! Ive see this starting on a couple of my trees. Time to reevaluate my plans for them.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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thumblessprimate1

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Ya. That was was a pretty interesting article on the topic of to chop or not to chop a tree with certain things going on with it. So no chop it is unless you remedy that right side. That's what I got out of it.
 

namnhi

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I learnt a lot from that blog post. I never really see thing the way Smoke stated. I don't know if I agree with everything there but I do hope to see this tree in another few years to see how much of what Smoke stated is true.
 

Cadillactaste

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I honestly need to go back and read what Al wrote...for my mind was confused...in thinking he might have an alias here under the poster. So...my head was spinning as to what I was seeing...then I had an appointment I had to get out the door for. Now I am home...I will go back and read it.
 

music~maker

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This morning I had to do a double take...seen this tree elsewhere. Where? Well...the BUNKER! Where I went because Al said he was going to be spending time there.

Al has some good stuff said.
https://bonsaial.wordpress.com/2017/08/14/short-leg-productions-presents-a-trident-maple-conundrum/

Wow, that's a very informative write-up. Glad he did that in spite of the initial drama. Even if OP doesn't take a single bit of advice from this, most who read this will learn something from it. Thanks to @Smoke for taking the time to write this up.

I hadn't considered the lower right area as a potential future dead zone, but it does make a certain amount of sense now based on the way it was laid out here.

I wouldn't have recommended chopping as low as either BVF or OP suggested either, but for completely different reasons. Since @MapleGuru seems uncomfortable with the process of re-growing trunks from a chop, I would have suggested chopping about an inch above the second obvious chop point (where it turns into a pole), and then practice re-growing a canopy from there. It's a safe place to chop to, would probably yield a pleasant enough looking tree, and I kind of like the trunk line up until that point anyway. And you could always chop back further in a few years if you didn't like how it was turning out.

It's certainly still a viable path, but in light of @Smoke's analysis, you'd have to accept that potential bottom trunk die off if you took my route straight away. Given that, I'd probably at least attempt some grafts first since it could potentially keep the trunk healthier and easier to work on.
 

MapleGuru

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Thank you guys for all your help. You know, I have been thinking about this tree a lot over the past few days. I mean, a lot. Like OCD, a lot. Like, day and night, a lot. I hope you understand. Anyway, after several days, it finally hit me.

I grew the stinking tree all wrong from the start. Too straight, no scars, didn't leave a branch on at least one side of the tree and it compartmentalized, which will leave a lopsided, ugly, non tapered tree thingy. After studying the tree for several days in my mother's basement, I finally noticed a dimple in the middle of the freaking trunk(!) and this confirmed my belief. Its over for the tree unless I can get a few expertly threaded grafts on the bare side.

Im sorry guys for wasting your time for something that I ended up figuring out on my own.



P.S. Im joking. Thank you @Smoke for the highly detailed explanation for this tree. Way above and beyond anything I could have imagined. Hats of to you sir! I will take your advice, not only because you made sense, but because I now have someone to blame if it doesn't work out. :)

Thanks to everyone who responded!
 

MapleGuru

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Although I will take Smokes advice and thread graft a few branches onto the right side of the tree, I do not believe the right side will die without them. Check the photo out below. I marked the compartmentalization in the middle of the trunk red. I also marked the thick branch exiting the trunk in red. The yellow line splits that branch into two equal parts. And if you look at the green, you can see that some of the flow from the branch should be......."innervating"......the right side of the trunk, therefore keeping it alive.

Since the dimplization(yes, Im coining that term) doesn't go all the way to the top of the first major trunk chop and because the exiting limb has at least half of its material above that dimple........it appears that the limb is contributing some of its energy(up to half) to the right side too.

Ihopenot.jpg

What do you think?
 

coh

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What does the lowest chop look like? Can you take a photo showing it from that side? If the callus is still increasing I would think you might be OK, especially if you do go ahead an chop somewhere above to encourage more shoots...or graft something onto the right side. If the callus has stalled then maybe you have a problem. From this angle it looks like the callus hasn't really covered up much of the original chop site but that just may be the perspective.

I've got trees in my growing bed that look like this and I haven't seen any evidence of the trunk dying back below the first chop (not yet, anyhow).
 

Saddler

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Although I will take Smokes advice and thread graft a few branches onto the right side of the tree, I do not believe the right side will die without them. Check the photo out below. I marked the compartmentalization in the middle of the trunk red. I also marked the thick branch exiting the trunk in red. The yellow line splits that branch into two equal parts. And if you look at the green, you can see that some of the flow from the branch should be......."innervating"......the right side of the trunk, therefore keeping it alive.

Since the dimplization(yes, Im coining that term) doesn't go all the way to the top of the first major trunk chop and because the exiting limb has at least half of its material above that dimple........it appears that the limb is contributing some of its energy(up to half) to the right side too.

View attachment 156923

What do you think?
I think you are kidding yourself. To me, Smokes advice that it is compartmentalizing and has only a few years left makes a lot of sense. The right side is alive, at the moment. As he said, it is compartmentalizing, as in, the middle of the process. Like most things, the tree will take the path of least resistance. Going around that dead spot is not that path.

Many moons ago I used to cut firewood for a living and this has blown my mind in retrospect. When you are cutting trees up into 16" pieces, you get to see how different factors have changed the tree in a unique perspective. I am sure this explains some of the live / deadwood trees I have bucked up. My money is the live vein above the top of the deadwood is going to shrink and shrink and shrink and die, taking the whole right side with it.
 
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