I fear I'm losing one of my favorites, please help! (Western Larch)

Horophyle · Jun 23, 2017

twisted trees said:
If it wasn't dry when it wilted or didn't perk up after watering then it's not a water problem. Larch in bonsai soil generally cannot be over watered; the soil drains too readily. My guess (from experience with over 1,000 larch) is it might have a vascular fungus.

Last two seasons this tree was in a much more organic soil mixture. And I think that soil was retaining a lot more water. I switched it over to the stated akadama mix this April...BUT...I din't change my watering schedule. So I am really hoping this was just being under-watered and I'm not too late. Have it under some netting now with a generous layer of Sphagnum on top. Going to start giving it a little water in the evening when I get home.

The climate is so exceedingly dry here that I think fungus could be ruled out, but anything is possible. Any specific cause of action to take if this is the case?

Thanks!

twisted trees · Jun 23, 2017

Horophyle said:
Last two seasons this tree was in a much more organic soil mixture. And I think that soil was retaining a lot more water. I switched it over to the stated akadama mix this April...BUT...I din't change my watering schedule. So I am really hoping this was just being under-watered and I'm not too late. Have it under some netting now with a generous layer of Sphagnum on top. Going to start giving it a little water in the evening when I get home.

The climate is so exceedingly dry here that I think fungus could be ruled out, but anything is possible. Any precautions if this is the case?

Thanks!

I had the most trouble with the vascular fungus when the trees were too damp while overwintering. Larch do need a lot of water and the soil mixture you mentioned is great for root growth but needs extra water as it drains very quickly.

LanceMac10 · Jun 23, 2017

I'd check for bugs first, before I did anything "invasive/chem strike"....

Horophyle · Jun 23, 2017

LanceMac10 said:
I'd check for bugs first, before I did anything "invasive/chem strike"....

I spent about 20 minutes with the tree last night while I was grinding and applying the new layer of sphagnum. No bugs in sight as far as I can tell.

twisted trees · Jun 23, 2017

LanceMac10 said:
Larch love water.....most of the time they live in swamps.

This seems to be one of those things that get repeated so often that it becomes true. There are Japanese, American and European larch that grow all over western NY and almost none of them are in swamps. That is not to say that larch can't live in swamps, they do. I think that it's more like they can grow in a swamp rather than they prefer swamps. As to heat, once temps reach about 93F larch begin to suffer heat stress. Short term this causes mostly yellowing of foliage. Long term, weeks or yearly occurrences, cause branch or tree failure.

twisted trees · Jun 23, 2017

Horophyle said:
I spent about 20 minutes with the tree last night while I was grinding and applying the new layer of sphagnum. No bugs in sight as far as I can tell.

There are very few bugs or diseases that I am aware of that strike larch though my experience is strictly in the Western New York area. Here the biggest problem is gypsy moth caterpillars. They can defoliate trees very quickly

LanceMac10 · Jun 23, 2017

Let's just say I didn't grow up on choice real-estate.

AlainK · Jun 23, 2017

Root problem:

Remove the tree from the much too low container, don't touch the roots.

Put it in a much better, deeper soil: 40% pozzolane, 20% pumice or sharp gravel, 40% composted pine bark or the like.

GGB · Jun 23, 2017

Bummer!! I really like something about that tree. I can only offer insight on eastern larch and I only have one sooo .. not much of an authority, but I really hope it makes it. I know eastern larch love water (like everyone keeps saying) but I feel like I remember hearing they were especially flood tolerant compared to others in the genus. I hate to add to the 'noise" but wth

Horophyle · Jun 23, 2017

AlainK said:
Root problem:

Remove the tree from the much too low container, don't touch the roots.

Put it in a much better, deeper soil: 40% pozzolane, 20% pumice or sharp gravel, 40% composted pine bark or the like.

I am open to this idea but is it a good idea to go in and disturb the roots on a sick tree? Especially when it may just be a watering issue? I am just not sure I can get it out of this pot and into a new one without stressing the roots.

Not trying to be difficult, just don't want to do any more damage than has already been done.

AlainK · Jun 25, 2017

Horophyle said:
is it a good idea to go in and disturb the roots on a sick tree?

No, you're right, it's not the right time to do it: I meant next spring. Meanwhile, I'd try some fungicide on the soil...

Horophyle · Jun 26, 2017

AlainK said:
No, you're right, it's not the right time to do it: I meant next spring. Meanwhile, I'd try some fungicide on the soil...

Thanks for the help!

BeebsBonsai · Jun 26, 2017

Are there different types of wire on the tree? I am relatively new to the hobby, but what I do know is that if two different metals come into contact, they will undergo a process called galvanic corrosion. Essentially, if there is moisture between them where they touch, the moisture allows for a current to be passed from metal to metal. That current causes the metals chemical properties to change. As they do, they can erode and become corrosive. It's possible that is happening and releasing a byproduct as it does. Usually it takes some time, but in piping, if you allow say carbon steel to touch stainless steel, it ruins the chemical composition of the stainless in no time at all.

AlainK · Jun 26, 2017

BeebsBonsai said:
Are there different types of wire on the tree? (...)

Very interesting.

I can't answer this, but when I started working with larch (Dunkeld larch), I used either copper or aluminium, and I noticed that the branches on which I used copper were more prone to die. I don't think that any definite conclusion can de made: I was (I am) a beginner, and maybe it was just that the copper wires were too tight.

But since I've been using aluminium wire only, I haven't had that problem.

twisted trees · Jun 26, 2017

Ok, you have had a few days to water more. Has the tree revived?

Horophyle · Jun 26, 2017

BeebsBonsai said:
Are there different types of wire on the tree?

Both Aluminum. One coated black and one not coated. Thanks for the idea though!

Horophyle · Jun 26, 2017

twisted trees said:
Ok, you have had a few days to water more. Has the tree revived?

No revival yet. Been getting the tree more water but the needles seem to have continued to dry. Some are falling off now. Definitely not a good sign.

This being said, and I understand the difference in species but my Fiancé had a potentilla bonsai die on her in the middle of the summer last year. It turned brown and COMPLETELY defoliated itself in three days, looked pretty pitiful. She was upset and almost tossed it. I just put some sphagnum on it and kept it in with the normal watering regiment and after about 2 weeks it started pushing new buds.

So I haven't come close to giving up on this Larch yet but I also can't say things are looking any better at the moment. The forecast for the next week here is hovering right at 80 degrees with nights in the mid 40's. This is as lot more "normal" for this time of year so I am hoping this will help as well. It has been exceedingly hot the last couple days. It's living under shade netting with a couple collected trees that are recovering from their spring transplant, so fingers still crossed on a recovery.

@twisted trees Maybe time to explore your Vascular Fungus idea?

AlainK · Jun 26, 2017

I think the container is too shallow.

Horophyle · Jun 26, 2017

AlainK said:
I think the container is too shallow.

I think I agree. But not much I can do about that until/if it recovers. Luckily the forecast says it will be cooling down a little, that should help If the problem was in fact under watering.

Arcto · Jun 26, 2017

First when those needles turned gray, an irreversible process started with them. They are gone. Just a question of how long they take to completely turn color and drop. Second, needle loss on top probably means root dieback below. The question is, how much? If the root mass is solid, you can carefully slip the tree out of the pot and check the outside of the root mass for dieback. If the root mass is not solid, better to leave it alone vs putting more trauma on the tree. 2 things to think about going forward with watering. You've for the time being, lost most of your transpiration. Whatever dead roots are in there have increased the organic component in your soil mix and possibly created anaerobic conditions. Dumping too much water on the tree in this condition is as bad as too little. Water as needed, not as you believe will help. That means daily monitoring. At best, the tree has entered an involuntary dormant period until recovery and growth starts.

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