This depresses the hell out of me

Coupla pics from my Instagram feed. Others have probably seen these.



Seemingly hundreds of bonsai sold like commodities that appear to be of a quality I may never aspire to from material I will never have access to. In another world I will never live in. Makes me feel like I'm splashing around in a wading pool while Michael Phelps is doing laps next door.

Velodog2 said:

Seemingly hundreds of bonsai sold like commodities that appear to be of a quality I may never aspire to from material I will never have access to. In another world I will never live in.

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Buck up, man! Depression is not needed. The right response should be pity. Those ARE a commodity: mass produced according to a formula for the consumption of a public that largely buys them for purposes other than those that attract us to the hobby, purposes as banal and formulaic as those trees are themselves.

You live in central Maryland - find some bonsai buddies there who like to go collecting out in the ridges and farmlands of the Appalachians in your state or in Pennsylvania or Virginia. Pay attention to what real trees look like in nature, especially those that aren't "perfect" in the sense that those green-helmet monstrosities are. Find something to collect that has charcter, or onto which you can impose some character, get permission to collect it, bring it home and see if you can bring out that character over the years. You can do the same with nursery trees that are in the bargain area of nurseries because they're not "perfect" enough for most people to put in their yard: They ARE perfect for your needs. Bring them home, learn the particulars of caring year-round for each species you have, learn how to work the wood and the deadwood, the branching characteristics, the foliage, etc for each tree. Make them something with character - bring out their beauty according to YOUR vision, not some formula. Play in the water - who the heck wants to do laps?!

grouper52 said:

Buck up, man! Depression is not needed. The right response should be pity. Those ARE a commodity: mass produced according to a formula for the consumption of a public that largely buys them for purposes other than those that attract us to the hobby, purposes as banal and formulaic as those trees are themselves.

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Actually apart from the very expensive trees, most trees sold are not that expensive and bought by enthusiast like you and me, its mainly an old peoples hobby here, people that couldnt care less if ts called art, wether they are allowed to call them their tree and they just keep them as a hobby, happy to reach a green helmet and with less ego then a lot of people on this site.

You need to learn a little Spanish. That is the vending area of the World Bonsai Convention in Saitama. I would hope they would have nice trees there

But don't be depressed. Someone somewhere made those trees - why not you?

Well perhaps if I saw them up close I would not be impressed. And everything Grouper says is true and what I do, although not with Maryland yamadori. The doing and developing is where the joy is but seeing so many seemingly high quality trees racked up like that seems to trivialize my efforts and achievements.

I fantasize about spending a leisurely hour or more finding that single tree in those racks that speaks to me and is (undoubtedly) just far enough out of my comfort zone price-wise to make me have to agonize over the decision a bit. I need to work on my fantasy life.

Bonsai Nut said:

You need to learn a little Spanish. That is the vending area of the World Bonsai Convention in Saitama. I would hope they would have nice trees there

But don't be depressed. Someone somewhere made those trees - why not you?

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Ja ja, si tengo un poco de espanol and I was able to figure it out. Doesn't invalidate my fantasy and observation that it was a world I'd never live in!

Velodog2 said:

I fantasize about spending a leisurely hour or more finding that single tree in those racks that speaks to me and is (undoubtedly) just far enough out of my comfort zone price-wise to make me have to agonize over the decision a bit. I need to work on my fantasy life.

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When I see those trees I always think that you aren't really buying a tree. You are buying experience and time. If you have decent bonsai experience in development, then really all you are doing is buying time. I can look at a juniper twist or a shohin maple and think - it took them x years to develop this tree, with y man hours per year of care. A small young shohin off an air-layer might have taken 3 years of work with 8 hours per year of potting, pruning and wiring. Large trees can be exponentially more work. Toss in a $50 pot (or more) and you can see how even small trees get into the $000's. But it is definitely a path that works for some.

If you start with pre-bonsai material, you will start with trees at 1/10th the price. However you get to supply the experience and the time

Djtommy said:

Actually apart from the very expensive trees, most trees sold are not that expensive and bought by enthusiast like you and me, its mainly an old peoples hobby here, people that couldnt care less if ts called art, wether they are allowed to call them their tree and they just keep them as a hobby, happy to reach a green helmet and with less ego then a lot of people on this site.

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Ah, I see - Was it ego, then, when John Naka made his famous statement: "Don't try to make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like a tree." These trees all look like bonsai: Skillfully grown and manicured bonsai, yes, but they all look alike, and none of them really looks like a tree or anything much different than the other plants sitting around it on the shelf. Quite boring, quite frankly.

And what in the world is this currently popular, almost demanded, reflexive societal aversion to this mother-of-all-faults/sins - "ego" - all about these days anyway? If you want to interact with a being devoid of "ego," get yourself a rock. Sheesh!

grouper52 said:

If you want to interact with a being devoid of "ego," get yourself a rock. Sheesh!

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I don't know.
Some of those rocks seem a little uppity.
Especially the ones at the top of the pile.

Bonsai Nut said:

When I see those trees I always think that you aren't really buying a tree. You are buying experience and time. If you have decent bonsai experience in development, then really all you are doing is buying time. I can look at a juniper twist or a shohin maple and think - it took them x years to develop this tree, with y man hours per year of care. A small young shohin off an air-layer might have taken 3 years of work with 8 hours per year of potting, pruning and wiring. Large trees can be exponentially more work. Toss in a $50 pot (or more) and you can see how even small trees get into the $000's. But it is definitely a path that works for some.

If you start with pre-bonsai material, you will start with trees at 1/10th the price. However you get to supply the experience and the time

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I rarely, as in almost never, buy styled trees already in bonsai pots contrary to my fantasy, for reasons of cost and that most don't move me that much (plus again that I like the creation process). Thus the fantasy that I would find better quality in Saitama. But then when I see good professionally styled trees they often seem to impress to some extent just because they weren't done by me, not to mention that they are just, well, better lol. As in like wow I'd never think to do that! Even if it's just the way a branch was made to curve in a way mine never do. Perhaps we fall into habits of repetition with styling that we don't realize. Anyway that's going a bit far afield, but still the kind of experience I'd expect at a place like in the pics.

Ultimately I think Grouper might be right. I'd be disappointed. Better to think that way anyway, although it kills the fantasy!

If you think about my last statement of nursery trees = experience x time, you can see how the way to make money in commercial bonsai nursery business is to keep your hours per tree to a minimum. Therefore it is most profitable to bring in 100 trees at a time and do all the same work on them at the same time. 100 x repotting. 100 x pruning. 100 x styling. So if you style 100 shohin shimpakus, guess what? They are all going to look similar Only rare or unusual trees get personal, custom styling. They look unique, and feature corresponding prices

Velodog2 said:

I rarely, as in almost never, buy styled trees already in bonsai pots contrary to my fantasy, for reasons of cost and that most don't move me that much (plus again that I like the creation process). Thus the fantasy that I would find better quality in Saitama. But then when I see good professionally styled trees they often seem to impress to some extent just because they weren't done by me, not to mention that they are just, well, better lol. As in like wow I'd never think to do that! Even if it's just the way a branch was made to curve in a way mine never do. Perhaps we fall into habits of repetition with styling that we don't realize. Anyway that's going a bit far afield, but still the kind of experience I'd expect at a place like in the pics.

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One of the nurseries in our area the key is to make sure you buy material before they move it into a bonsai pot. One year a tree will be in a black nursery pot as "pre-bonsai" and the next year you will see the same tree with no additional work on it, repotted in a $10 Chinese pot, and the price has DOUBLED.

I have never bought a "finished" bonsai tree though I have bought a few advanced pre-bonsai that have caught my eye and just need to be potted up in a bonsai pot and a little refinement done to them. However my trees are always changing, and after 5 years most look pretty different.

Bonsai Nut said:

When I see those trees I always think that you aren't really buying a tree. You are buying experience and time. If you have decent bonsai experience in development, then really all you are doing is buying time. I can look at a juniper twist or a shohin maple and think - it took them x years to develop this tree, with y man hours per year of care. A small young shohin off an air-layer might have taken 3 years of work with 8 hours per year of potting, pruning and wiring. Large trees can be exponentially more work. Toss in a $50 pot (or more) and you can see how even small trees get into the $000's. But it is definitely a path that works for some.

If you start with pre-bonsai material, you will start with trees at 1/10th the price. However you get to supply the experience and the time

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For never the experience & the time are the enjoyable parts. Kind of like landscaping my garden with my ponds. The creating/planning I've done way more than just sitting enjoying the fruits of my labor. Why it will never be "done"

Seems like the old saying "you can't buy time" does not apply in bonsai. The older you get the more appealing that seems to be!

That's one thing I like about bonsai - they're never "done" - at least not while they're alive ...

For me, it's the ungoing creative process of episodic tinkering that appeals, and the repeated, but momentary, deeply satisfying states of "perfection" along the way. I wouldn't want it to be any other way, and fortunately - the trees being living, changing beings - won't let it be any other way.

Maros said:

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Yes! Lol!

Grouper hit the nail on the head. I also live in Pennsylvania and we have some of the most beautiful parts of Appalachian mountains full of beautiful trees and examples to learn from. They are all good looking bonsai but it's another person's view of that tree. The most beautiful tree is a tree that came from you. Your minds image of what that specific tree should look like.

Djtommy said:

Actually apart from the very expensive trees, most trees sold are not that expensive and bought by enthusiast like you and me, its mainly an old peoples hobby here, people that couldnt care less if ts called art, wether they are allowed to call them their tree and they just keep them as a hobby, happy to reach a green helmet and with less ego then a lot of people on this site.

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I've learned that very thing myself from reading a number of Japaneses Yahoo! blogs - quite interesting and helpful, not to mention comforting.

...but, if you have good sources in your bonsai circle. You can find gems for the bench. Or, go collect...even some nursery stock can be created to be more if the bones are right. I don't begrudge ones who have access to such material. I call them blessed and how can I begrudge ones blessing.