The Double Colander ------ is this it's use.

So today, we found a colander that is just over 24 " by 6" deep. plastic and had a chuckle about
double / triple colanders.
This led to a re-reading of Bonsai Today no.20 page 47.

The diagram at the bottom left of page shows, roots, thick ones in the first colander, and
becoming finer in the second.

Perhaps the idea was to get the roots around the tree to enlarge for the root flare and the
second was to continue the root sub-division, and to thicken the roots going toe the trunk.
Just was not in the translation.

So we will look for this in the Caribbean Pine container, let you know how it goes.
Good Day
Anthony

As an add on,

so you take up the colander for better root usage of the soil mix. The air stopping of the roots and continual regrowth of new feeder roots.

When the Tamarind in the air pot was opened after a year ----------------- it was wooden. Roots piled over roots, no soil visible.
It actually was confusing.
BUT this first test was only done to the depth of 4" [ simulating a simple 4" x 4" x 4" garden pot ]
This year the full length was used. Images sometime around April, our cold can kill a Tamarind from the seaside, as opposed to one
from inland. Learned that lesson the hard way, dead a beautiful potential multi-branched tree, 3" trunk.

Also checking for is an Airpot = t lo a colander. Visual results later on next month or so.

What was noticed however is that some trees have the ability to thicken the trunk, and roots in pots.
Ficus p, Texas Ebony, Tamarind, and J.B.pine.
We will with time find more.

Some will not - good example --------- Fukien Tea - needs ground growing to trunk thicken.

Some are odd - Fustic - Chlorophora t., ------- extended branch thickens, trunk does not - ????
Result all cuttings on the Fustic that is similar to the Zelkova one, are now in the growing trough for trunk thickening.

Thus far, what we are observing is you have to know which tree trunk thickens in a pot, and which one does not.

So using a colander might make the roots super efficient, and lead to a healthy tree, but it isn't a substitute for
ground growing.

However, you might end up with a thick trunk from ground growing, place in a colander for rejuvination of
feeder roots, and a double colander [ if needed ] for thick surface roots if needed.
All Theory, now to test and prove.
Ohno not more tests.
Good Day
Anthony


started around 2009 / 2010 - trunk is now 3?, work gone to branches. pot about 1" deep
Deliberately slowed and even growth.


Before we knew better, the disaster, wounds will need special treatment to heal.

Oh, if you want to know if a tree will thicken in a pot, just grow a branch extension from 6' to 10'
long. Observe.
The Ficus p. does it after 3'.
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony, basal root flair develops as roots grow. It does not matter if the feeder roots are inside or outside the interior colendar.

Basal roots (nebari) develops faster if the roots are all at the same level as they extend from the trunk. And, (this is perhaps the most important part), they grow OUT not DOWN. Downward roots straight off the trunk ( i.e. "Tap roots ) will fatten the entire trunk, but not provide anything to creating flair. This is why the Ebihara technique works so well! No downward growing roots! All roots growing outwards from the trunk. Builds a widening nebari.

See the thread "Ebihari maples". There's no reason this technique is limited to maples.

Sifu,

thanks for taking the time to respond.
I have read that most trees support their weight / shape, by radial root growth and live in around 3' or so of soil, on flat land,
they obviously adapt to rocky terrain or other.

Most colanders are only max 6" , correct ?

I believe the idea is the roots in a single colander, are forced to be efficient, but once again, only the afore mentioned trees,
are able to thicken in a pot.
So if you use that property, an extension, as provided by the second colander would probably aid in thickening the roots
in the first colander.

The main property being - they thicken in pots, and don't need to be ground grown.

Remember in the Bonsai Today articles, the J.B.pine roots are prepared and placed, to be enhanced by thickening in clay pots.

Anyhow, much of this is theory, save, for trees mentioned, observation shows, the ability to thicken in the pot, the trunk and
main roots, as well as branches.No need for ground growing.

We were able to observe this with a recently potted J.B.pine, which has an extension branch, and a pencil thick 11" long root
in a cement pot - internally 7.5 " x 4" depth 2".

Imagine if we had , the knowledge beforehand and could have passed the energy through a surface root.
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony, I know nothing about tropical trees. I don't have any.

That said...

You state that there are some trees that won't thicken in a pot. Why do you suppose that is? What if the "pot" was 50 feet across and 6 feet deep? Do you think the trunk would fatten? Sure it would! The tree wouldn't know it's in a pot.

So, what if the tree were 10 feet wide, and 3 feet deep? Same?

5 feet? Two feet? At what point does the size of the pot affect trunk thickening? And why?

Let's just suppose that at 2 feet, the roots are too constricted to provide the nutrients to support enough top growth to stimulate trunk growth. Seems like it is the total volume of soil/root mass available, right? Now, let's say that the tree was originally planted in a one foot wide colander, but then allowed to grow thru the colander in the soil beyond. And fill the pot. It's still the same volume of soil/roots! The only thing the interior colander does is restrict the size of the roots passing thru it, for a while. Eventually, the roots will expand and break the colander, or fuse and "absorb" it.

I know of several people who have tried the double colander thing. All of them say they saw no real benefit, and the colander had to be cut off.

I think the original idea of the double colander was not to leave the colander buried for one than one year. If the volume allowed by the original colander was too small, bury it in another one. After a year, take it out of the second colander, prune the roots that passed thru the first colander off. Leaving the original colander on. Then bury it again in a new larger colander with fresh soil. This keeps a dense rootball close to the trunk while allowing the roots to grow into fresh soil.

Sifu,

our growing troughs are roughly 10' x 2' x 14" deep. The root run allows for rapid trunk growth on most trees.
I sent an idea, with similar dimensions to Sorce, about a week or so ago.
BUT it was realised from further discussion, that the troughs had already proven that idea [ apologies Sorce,
I haven't had time to write to you.]

Earth, and Pot are a little different. Information shows that after 6" in a pot, water stores and makes perched water tables.
So a while ago we shifted to large saucers for pots around 16 to 24 inches in diameter and about 3" deep. They ongrow
trees very well.

Nothing wrong with roots passing through, but the first colander will see the stopping of the renewed fine roots process.
They would evolve into thicker roots, passing through to restart the process of fine root regeneration in the second
colander.
With a tree that thickens in a pot [ less than 6" deep ] the first colander would evolve thick roots.
Yes, you would cut off the roots in the second colander, but then leave the roots in the first colander to regenerate
the fine roots.

What we do with our soil mix is tip the pot around July, and up to half an inch will fall off in just inorganic material.
Refresh with compost and go on until repotting time in January of the next year, if the tree needs to be repotted.
So a tree can easily regenerate the fine roots sitting in the original colander, for a period of time [ months ]

Please note, that for most trees. a stay in a colander - may - just mean healthy feeder roots, and not much else, since they
won't thicken in the colander, instead they would need to be ground grown.

However, please note we are running tests of air-pot versus colander. To see if there is a difference in root behaviour.

We have yet to have a colander produce ---------- wood as far as density of root is concerned, as seen in the Air-pot.
Thanks again for taking the time to chat.
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony said:

Sifu,

our growing troughs are roughly 10' x 2' x 14" deep. The root run allows for rapid trunk growth on most trees.
I sent an idea, with similar dimensions to Sorce, about a week or so ago.
BUT it was realised from further discussion, that the troughs had already proven that idea [ apologies Sorce,
I haven't had time to write to you.]

Earth, and Pot are a little different. Information shows that after 6" in a pot, water stores and makes perched water tables.
So a while ago we shifted to large saucers for pots around 16 to 24 inches in diameter and about 3" deep. They ongrow
trees very well.

Nothing wrong with roots passing through, but the first colander will see the stopping of the renewed fine roots process.
They would evolve into thicker roots, passing through to restart the process of fine root regeneration in the second
colander.
With a tree that thickens in a pot [ less than 6" deep ] the first colander would evolve thick roots.
Yes, you would cut off the roots in the second colander, but then leave the roots in the first colander to regenerate
the fine roots.

What we do with our soil mix is tip the pot around July, and up to half an inch will fall off in just inorganic material.
Refresh with compost and go on until repotting time in January of the next year, if the tree needs to be repotted.
So a tree can easily regenerate the fine roots sitting in the original colander, for a period of time [ months ]

Please note, that for most trees. a stay in a colander - may - just mean healthy feeder roots, and not much else, since they
won't thicken in the colander, instead they would need to be ground grown.

However, please note we are running tests of air-pot versus colander. To see if there is a difference in root behaviour.

We have yet to have a colander produce ---------- wood as far as density of root is concerned, as seen in the Air-pot.
Thanks again for taking the time to chat.
Good Day
Anthony

Click to expand...

I bought some air pots that I'm giving a try, I'd like to see if they last longer then a colander.

Aaron

Aaron,

this is the type we use. Tried the one you are showing, it wasn't as effective, for us.
Scottish type.
Good Day
Anthony

Tamarind in air-pot

Anthony said:

So today, we found a colander that is just over 24 " by 6" deep. plastic and had a chuckle about
double / triple colanders.
This led to a re-reading of Bonsai Today no.20 page 47.

The diagram at the bottom left of page shows, roots, thick ones in the first colander, and
becoming finer in the second.

Perhaps the idea was to get the roots around the tree to enlarge for the root flare and the
second was to continue the root sub-division, and to thicken the roots going toe the trunk.
Just was not in the translation.

So we will look for this in the Caribbean Pine container, let you know how it goes.
Good Day
Anthony

Click to expand...

Sheesh... not again...

Anthony,

The problem when discussing things like "growing in the ground" is that "ground" is different across the world. What is your "ground" like in Trinidad? I have no idea.

Here, in North Georgia, it's heavy clay. With rocks. Not very fertile at all. (Once they started raising chickens, and spread the chicken manure on the fields, it improved things a bit).

In Florida, it's sandy.

In New Hampshire, it's more like gravel.

So, you put in growing troughs. Raised beds? What soil was used to fill them?

I have a vegetable garden. The soil there gets amended each fall with horse manure. Beneath the rich soil of the garden's raised beds is the clay. We can't grow good tomatoes in the clay. But we sure can in the garden. How do you define "ground"? The ground my tomatoes thrive in is very different than the ground two feet outside the raised beds of the garden.

Anthony said:

...after 6" in a pot, water stores and makes perched water tables.

Click to expand...

Where's King Kong when you need him???

Anthony said:

However, please note we are running tests of air-pot versus colander. To see if there is a difference in root behaviour.

We have yet to have a colander produce ---------- wood as far as density of root is concerned, as seen in the Air-pot.
Thanks again for taking the time to chat.
Good Day
Anthony

Click to expand...

Look there is NO reason to double colander. That may be why you have yet to have one produce wood... The ENTIRE point is air pruning the roots... Sheesh...

Anthony said:

Aaron,

this is the type we use. Tried the one you are showing, it wasn't as effective, for us.
Scottish type.
Good Day
Anthony

Tamarind in air-pot
View attachment 91612

Click to expand...

Those looks really nice I'd like to get my hands on some of those.


Aaron

Sifu,

the troughs were filled with loam, what we call top soil - it's porous, and enriched with compost every year.
The trough is essentially built with porous hollow clay blocks and then plastered with a mix of sand and cement.
The exterior is oil painted.
They are built on cast cement, with pipes at the base to remove excess water. The structure functions like
porous earthenware so it also wicks water into itself.

Each shape requires 3 buckets [ about 2 gallons ] of water to get the pipes to pour.

With simple plants it takes a week to dry out. With 3 to 4 fully grown Roma tomato plants per trough it's 3 days under full sun.

Grows everything well.
Good Day
Anthony

Sifu

As I understand - ground growing - you are supposed to modify the area, for use. Not just stick a plant and hope for the
best. Plus allow enough distance for each plant to thrive comfortably.

I remember on IBC, an English guy had a tamarind in one of the eastern countries, planted about a foot from the house
foundation. Would love to see how much that grew.

Clyde, I brought up the topic, to allow the new folk to read or speak with no fear of being chided.

Please note - the air-pot is used with 100% compost, and it was interesting to see feeder root growth so extreme.
This year we hope to try that and see if it improves the growing..
Lighter note.
I could ask Mike Fray [ Gogeerah ] to burn me to a crisp electrically, if that would make you happy.
Good Day
Anthony

Good thread Anthony. Colanders in the ground and colanders inside bigger colanders can be used to achieve spesific things, that is different to a single colander. I've proved that to myself.
Its two different techniques to achieve different goals...!

Anthony said:

Clyde, I brought up the topic, to allow the new folk to read or speak with no fear of being chided.

Anthony

Click to expand...

That's fine to bring it up but it is very important that you let everyone know that the double stack thing is a pointless waste of time that completely ignores the real reason to use them. The new folk are the ones that need to hear that...

Some years ago I posted a video from the company that makes your air pots. It explains the whole thing, just watch.

Adair M said:

Anthony, I know nothing about tropical trees. I don't have any.

That said...

You state that there are some trees that won't thicken in a pot. Why do you suppose that is? What if the "pot" was 50 feet across and 6 feet deep? Do you think the trunk would fatten? Sure it would! The tree wouldn't know it's in a pot.

So, what if the tree were 10 feet wide, and 3 feet deep? Same?

5 feet? Two feet? At what point does the size of the pot affect trunk thickening? And why?

Let's just suppose that at 2 feet, the roots are too constricted to provide the nutrients to support enough top growth to stimulate trunk growth. Seems like it is the total volume of soil/root mass available, right? Now, let's say that the tree was originally planted in a one foot wide colander, but then allowed to grow thru the colander in the soil beyond. And fill the pot. It's still the same volume of soil/roots! The only thing the interior colander does is restrict the size of the roots passing thru it, for a while. Eventually, the roots will expand and break the colander, or fuse and "absorb" it.

I know of several people who have tried the double colander thing. All of them say they saw no real benefit, and the colander had to be cut off.



I think the original idea of the double colander was not to leave the colander buried for one than one year. If the volume allowed by the original colander was too small, bury it in another one. After a year, take it out of the second colander, prune the roots that passed thru the first colander off. Leaving the original colander on. Then bury it again in a new larger colander with fresh soil. This keeps a dense rootball close to the trunk while allowing the roots to grow into fresh soil.

Click to expand...

I'm glad to see what I have been telling people for years has been confirmed. As to why some trees do not thicken in pots? I have a theory that so far no one has disproved. Trees are just like tropical fish which, if you have ever grown fish, will not grow beyond the ability of the fish tank to contain them Trees are the same way. It is the root confinement and the limitations of the environment that limit the size of a tree. With a colander or training planter the tree is never really aware that it is confined. The roots are not confined as in a walled container, they are just influendced to branch out due the back up of auxins. When the tree starts to be hindered is when the soil in the container becomes so filled with fibrous roots the tree is confined from within. I have had a good deal of thickening on a tree planted in a screened planter.

If you plant a colander in the ground you are simply allowing the roots to escape and expand. You might get good root expansion for a while but eventually you are faced with the inevitable; removing the tree from the ground and the colander.

This process involves distrubing the tree in removing it from the growing bed and unless you colander has totally disintegrated the tree will be disturbed further by removing the colander from the roots or the tree from the colander, depending on which creates less havoc on the root system. Either way the tree is going to be set back developmentally for at least one year.

milehigh_7 said:

Where's King Kong when you need him???





Look there is NO reason to double colander. That may be why you have yet to have one produce wood... The ENTIRE point is air pruning the roots... Sheesh...

Click to expand...

Nice to see you back Milehigh!

Vance Wood said:

I'm glad to see what I have been telling people for years has been confirmed. As to why some trees do not thicken in pots? I have a theory that so far no one has disproved. Trees are just like tropical fish which, if you have ever grown fish, will not grow beyond the ability of the fish tank to contain them Trees are the same way. It is the root confinement and the limitations of the environment that limit the size of a tree. With a colander or training planter the tree is never really aware that it is confined. The roots are not confined as in a walled container, they are just influendced to branch out due the back up of auxins. When the tree starts to be hindered is when the soil in the container becomes so filled with fibrous roots the tree is confined from within. I have had a good deal of thickening on a tree planted in a screened planter.

If you plant a colander in the ground you are simply allowing the roots to escape and expand. You might get good root expansion for a while but eventually you are faced with the inevitable; removing the tree from the ground and the colander.

This process involves distrubing the tree in removing it from the growing bed and unless you colander has totally disintegrated the tree will be disturbed further by removing the colander from the roots or the tree from the colander, depending on which creates less havoc on the root system. Either way the tree is going to be set back developmentally for at least one year.

Click to expand...

I have noticed that if you take a plant that has been growing in a air pruning pot and slip pot it into a large pot or the ground, you can get a get sudden explosion of growth. One of my zelkova seedlings tripled in thickness in 3 months after I put it's pond basket in my raised bed.

I believe what happens when you place a colander or pond basket into a larger soil body is that the massive amount of root tips rush out of the container and fuel an equal amount of top growth. If you were to dig the colander up after 2-3 months, you could capitalize on the explosion of growth with having to worry about the roots becoming to thick or leggy. Then you would let the tree go through the air pruning process again.