Are these any good?

barrosinc

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I was thinking... rotate like this, graft the middle branch lower.
plan.jpg

After that, just create ramification and decandle in december. And then wire when the new shoots have hardened off.
 

sorce

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I was thinking... rotate like this, graft the middle branch lower.
View attachment 87028

After that, just create ramification and decandle in december. And then wire when the new shoots have hardened off.

Just to be super critical!

That branch comes out dead straight.
Of course Its just a virtual. Just made me think of these things......

I would question.....

Tree angle first. ......
Graft angle second. .....
And then, wether a branch there will positively affect your design....?
Or does it just seem to need to be there. ....because of the rules?

I like it either way, and you can always cut the graft branch off......

Just thoughts to go over with the pine fellas!

This material is too Cool to waste time on!

Sorce
 

barrosinc

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Straight lines were just a fast way of drawing it with MS Paint.
I did some pruning yesterday... all the branches had more than 2 candles per node...
I am quite inclined to rotating it like the image, but maybe not graft and just cut the branch off.... still thinking about it.

The top has like 7 branches coming out of it, I should probably graft a branch lower... this seems like calling for reverse taper.
Then the middle of the tree has 4 branches... lower first node has no branches.

I really need help on this! I don't think they ever chose buds at each whorl.
 

0soyoung

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If all things are equal, @barrosinc, the top of the tree will always become more vigorous and the lower branches will become weak. So, you must make the apex weak for lower branches/grafts to grow.
 

Potawatomi13

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No need to graft. Keep 1st rt, 2nd rt and 2nd left(outside of bend)branches cut above 2nd rt and use that branch to develop apex. Do this AFTER it has grown out for the season to have solar panels(needles)for strength. Cannot see back branches but personally would avoid any growing from same place as one of these others. Keep on the outside of a bend unless absolutely needed to fill space. Then do as much as possible to make that branch interesting. Should make bends in young thin branches as many have mentioned brittleness of Red pine. If a break happens don't despair. Leave at that position and see if it lives, let it heal and move forward. Can make a more interesting accidental bend that way.;)
 

barrosinc

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No need to graft. Keep 1st rt, 2nd rt and 2nd left(outside of bend)branches cut above 2nd rt and use that branch to develop apex. Do this AFTER it has grown out for the season to have solar panels(needles)for strength. Cannot see back branches but personally would avoid any growing from same place as one of these others. Keep on the outside of a bend unless absolutely needed to fill space. Then do as much as possible to make that branch interesting. Should make bends in young thin branches as many have mentioned brittleness of Red pine. If a break happens don't despair. Leave at that position and see if it lives, let it heal and move forward. Can make a more interesting accidental bend that way.;)
I couldn't figure out what rt meant. But sounds like good advice.


If all things are equal, @barrosinc, the top of the tree will always become more vigorous and the lower branches will become weak. So, you must make the apex weak for lower branches/grafts to grow.
This makes all the sense in the world. The three top candles were massive. The producer showed me and cut candles to make them all equal size to balance energy and then do a full candle pruning in December. This year I am going to take his advice, even if it is not the best. For next year I hope to have my own plan.


How bout some more pictures?

Close ups of offending areas?

A top down shot?

Let's get a good look at what you got going on!

I want to live another summer thru you!

Sorce
I will get the pics today, thanks Sorce.
 

barrosinc

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I was thinking, maybe as it is a taller tree... the obvious informal upright style might not work as good as a heavily inclined tree sorta semi cascade but not going down because it doesn't bend like that.

20150315-40-untitled-S.jpg


This tree sorta fits it too:

20150322-79-bssf-S.jpg
 

sorce

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sorta semi cascade

Hell Yeah! That's Gangster! I see where you can get that from! I like it!

The other. Bottom pic. Looks doable in a couple years.........but it's gangly...A Short term vision....

I say......long game.....

Go long term vision!
Take time.....reap rewards!

Good friggin eye!

Sorce
 

Eric Schrader

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@barrosinc I think you're on the right track with this tree. And BTW, congrats on a nice photo setup. Looks like you'll be all set to start blogging!

Leaning it over is never a bad idea, pick the front and the angle to maximize the movement in the trunk and to avoid any horizontal or vertical lines.

As Sorce mentioned - you can compact the top by bending it down. The partial candle removal in spring is well-documented for balancing of the most-vigorous 10% of the shoots with the rest of the tree. Depending on your summer weather and the vigor you may or may not want to decandle the tree in December/January. The reasoning goes like this:

IF you need longer branches, then consider letting some things go without decandling. But, on a vigorous tree like this you may only want to do that in a few places. You'll want to make sure you wire those sections in fall to keep them from being too straight. Using decandling will create more wiggles in the branching ultimately, but will make it take longer to produce longer branches. Obviously, anything that you see as needing to stay compact you should decandle.

It looks like there are a couple scars and it also appears you may have a whorl at the top. You should gradually reduce any whorls over time, allowing the tree to produce new growth equal to the branching that you remove.

I don't think you need a graft, but I like tall elegant pines.
 

Adair M

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Max, the grower did what is called "breaking the candle", on those super strong candles up in the apex. It is the right thing to do. To help the tree balance the growth.
 

barrosinc

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@barrosinc I think you're on the right track with this tree. And BTW, congrats on a nice photo setup. Looks like you'll be all set to start blogging!

Leaning it over is never a bad idea, pick the front and the angle to maximize the movement in the trunk and to avoid any horizontal or vertical lines.

As Sorce mentioned - you can compact the top by bending it down. The partial candle removal in spring is well-documented for balancing of the most-vigorous 10% of the shoots with the rest of the tree. Depending on your summer weather and the vigor you may or may not want to decandle the tree in December/January. The reasoning goes like this:

IF you need longer branches, then consider letting some things go without decandling. But, on a vigorous tree like this you may only want to do that in a few places. You'll want to make sure you wire those sections in fall to keep them from being too straight. Using decandling will create more wiggles in the branching ultimately, but will make it take longer to produce longer branches. Obviously, anything that you see as needing to stay compact you should decandle.

It looks like there are a couple scars and it also appears you may have a whorl at the top. You should gradually reduce any whorls over time, allowing the tree to produce new growth equal to the branching that you remove.

I don't think you need a graft, but I like tall elegant pines.
blogging... yeah I have been working on it, I have it... the setup for that pic was a one minute thing with a collapsible backdrop.

The only issue about leaning the tree, is that I have to go almost 90 degrees right, and then the top sticks up. Probably would have to cut it off and graft the branch on the inflection point.

After posting the cutting candles in half I found it on a couple of blogs... so thanks Eric and Adair.

Whorls are terrible, so many branches... gotta work that. Badly!
 

sorce

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Damn Max!
It's not everyday a pine perks Eric Schrader out of HIS blog! Lol

Good stuff! Thanks Eric!

Sorce
 

barrosinc

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I know! Only if these guys knew how to do pine bonsai... :cool::cool:
Just kidding!!! Eric's seed pines awesome progressions and Adair's meticulousness for detail wiring are an inspiration.

This tree has been at the top of my mind for days, it looks like my best prebonsai. I have high expectations. Just thinking about repotting it gets my gut in a revolt.

Thanks for helping out, guys!
 

barrosinc

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you guys are way too smart... the pine from the first post DID DIE and pretty soon.
Mine is doing awesome!! I wired a couple of branches in place when I put it sideways.
When should I chop the trunk to get as most backbudding as possible? Fall is just about to start, maybe a couple of weeks more. Should I fertilize heaviliy now? Should I fertilize with 0:10:10 a couple times?
 

0soyoung

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Should I fertilize heaviliy now? Should I fertilize with 0:10:10 a couple times?
Yes, fertilize heavily now (its getting toward fall in Chile and your tree's new growth is hardened), but use lots of nitrogen - at least as much as P and K. Nitrogen is essential for budding. We feed little or no nitrogen in spring so that the new growth nodes are short. You would use 0:10:10, or nothing at all, in the spring. Give it nitrogen, now (10:10:10 to 16:10:10).
 

barrosinc

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Yes, fertilize heavily now (its getting toward fall in Chile and your tree's new growth is hardened), but use lots of nitrogen - at least as much as P and K. Nitrogen is essential for budding. We feed little or no nitrogen in spring so that the new growth nodes are short. You would use 0:10:10, or nothing at all, in the spring. Give it nitrogen, now (10:10:10 to 16:10:10).
Thanks! Always so helpful.
What about time to chop? I am decided on laying it on it's side but need as many buds as possible.
 

0soyoung

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In development (i.e., you're not candle pruning), August is a good time to prune hard or chop. That would be March, NOW!, in Chile. New growth should be hardened and, as a result, you should get lots of back budding.

BTW, don't forget feeding nitrogen, about NOW too ;)
 
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