Huge New Mugo

Vance Wood

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Thanks Vance!! That's exactly what I needed to know. Ok, I'll stick it in a pot today and won't touch it till July. Then I'll bare root it in better soil, and eliminate say, 30-40% of the foliage. Sounds good?

Then, to find a place for this monster! lol

Holy Crap, do not bare root this tree unless you want to lose it. Field soil with a Mugo is not the big problem a lot of the books and publications make it out to be. You can take three or four repotting cycles to replace the old soil.
 

fore

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Holy Crap, do not bare root this tree unless you want to lose it. Field soil with a Mugo is not the big problem a lot of the books and publications make it out to be. You can take three or four repotting cycles to replace the old soil.

I didn't at all Vance, I just removed the superficial clay layer. Good to know I can take my time replacing the orig. soil.

Well, at least I know what I did wrong to my first one lol Bare rooted the heck out of it :D
 

Vance Wood

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I didn't at all Vance, I just removed the superficial clay layer. Good to know I can take my time replacing the orig. soil.

Well, at least I know what I did wrong to my first one lol Bare rooted the heck out of it :D

Bare rooting any pine is generally a last resort life saving effort for a tree in desperate need, and probably followed by death.
 
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fore

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Well it's growing very well. The candles are extending, and some even have small ? cones at the neck of the ext. candle.
 

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fore

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Well, this g** damned fungus got to this tree too. Lost all the entire interior needles. There's prob. about 10" of live needles. The candles slowed down too. I got all the dead needles off (took over an hr), and sprayed it with copper. I'm blasting it, so 2 dys later, I also sprayed Bonide's Fungonil.

I know Rob and I have been complaining alot about fungus, and this is just another reason why. I am so tired of spraying, and not getting a handle on it. I get one tree stabilized, and then another gets infected, or reinfected. And yes, I do spray all my pines and junipers every time I spray. Hell, I maybe even loosing another branch on my JBP too! I'm getting so angry about this, which is obvious from my loose language here. It's not going to die, but I'm sure this set me back quite a bit.

Ok, rant's over...
 

coh

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You might want to consider talking to someone at your local agricultural office. Perhaps you can get an ID on the specific fungus involved, which in turn could lead to a treatment that is effective against that specific pathogen.

My other thought, are you sure it's a fungus and not just the typical dropping of old needles? Perhaps just occurring early this year due to weather conditions? Or due to the stress of whatever work you've done on this tree?

Chris
 

dick benbow

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typical mugho trunk with multiple limbs very low. looking forward to your styling after you get it stabilized.
 

october

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Well, this g** damned fungus got to this tree too. Lost all the entire interior needles. There's prob. about 10" of live needles. The candles slowed down too. I got all the dead needles off (took over an hr), and sprayed it with copper. I'm blasting it, so 2 dys later, I also sprayed Bonide's Fungonil.

I know Rob and I have been complaining alot about fungus, and this is just another reason why. I am so tired of spraying, and not getting a handle on it. I get one tree stabilized, and then another gets infected, or reinfected. And yes, I do spray all my pines and junipers every time I spray. Hell, I maybe even loosing another branch on my JBP too! I'm getting so angry about this, which is obvious from my loose language here. It's not going to die, but I'm sure this set me back quite a bit.

Ok, rant's over...


Oh no.. This one too...I have been spraying for pests mostly lately. However, I did hit one of my junipers with a fungicide again. The tree just seems to not be doing much, so even though there are not really the strong signs like before, somehow I think that it still might be present.

My thinking has been as long as the tree survives that is the main thing. However, where does this leave someone...Maybe with trees that will never achieve their previous look. Trees where the design is permanently ruined. Some, not styled yet. Sometimes you end up even worse than when you initially started training the tree. It is really up to the individual at that point to decide the direction. After training a tree for 5-7 years plus, now the fungus or whatever hits. Now, we are 3-4 years plus behind. So we are talking about a 10 year plus journey in which the end is very unclear, which it usually is in general.

Things are pretty slow going for junipers around here. I mean, I remember my junipers growing like crazy and getting those long extended shoots from different areas. I don't see much of that going on.

In my opinion fore, although you can still work with all the trees you have and hope for a good outcome. I think your success and enjoyment of bonsai might come in the form of starting a whole new collection. This time, being very aware of what you need to do right off the bat. Also, a new crop of trees might not give you the same problems. I do realize that there is a chance that if you start a new collection the same thing might happen. I also realize that many of us do not have thousands of dollars to throw down to start a whole new collection. However, if you try again and the same thing happens, you will know that it is just nature. However, if it works out for the best, you will finally be able to get some joy out of this hobby and actually be able to do bonsai. I mean, at this point, you can't even do actual bonsai. You can't style, wire etc. because you can't work on unhealthy trees. Basically your involvement with bonsai is keeping these trees surviving. I realize that this is an important part of bonsai. However, it should not be the only part for someone involved in the hobby.

Rob
 

october

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p.s. as mentioned.. It could be die back. However, if the needles have yellow bands around them and/or spots on them, it is a fungus.

Rob
 

Vance Wood

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You might want to consider talking to someone at your local agricultural office. Perhaps you can get an ID on the specific fungus involved, which in turn could lead to a treatment that is effective against that specific pathogen.

My other thought, are you sure it's a fungus and not just the typical dropping of old needles? Perhaps just occurring early this year due to weather conditions? Or due to the stress of whatever work you've done on this tree?

Chris

I certianly do not want to discourage this option and I wish you luck. Let me tell you what happened to me. It is no seceret to those who know me that I have a problem growing JWP, they contract a fungus and go belly up like a frog on a hot sidewalk. In the beginning when I was researching this issue I took pictures with detailed descriptions of what happens with this particular fungus I have been having to deal with. Not a one of them was interested in discovering what the problem was or seemed to care much about what to do about it.

So I have gone to spraying with Captan, or Daconil in the early spring and this seems to stop it for the most part. With Mugo Pines what you experienced was needle cast. It causes the older needles to turn yellow and drop off all the way back to last years growth. This wont kill your tree but it greatly reduces your cutting back options making those efforts more difficult.
 

coh

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I think we need more info, maybe a photo or two. I have pines on which some needles have blemishes/blotches/bands of "off color" that look like they could be fungal, but the needles are otherwise healthy green and remain on the tree. So is that a sign of a fungal infection that was "stopped" in time, or a fungal infection that is somehow under control or in remission but which could progress if the tree is weakened or stressed?
 

october

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I think we need more info, maybe a photo or two. I have pines on which some needles have blemishes/blotches/bands of "off color" that look like they could be fungal, but the needles are otherwise healthy green and remain on the tree. So is that a sign of a fungal infection that was "stopped" in time, or a fungal infection that is somehow under control or in remission but which could progress if the tree is weakened or stressed?

Can you post some pics? When the needles get these spots and bands, they are still green over time the needles turn pale, then yellow, the die. Healthy old needles just turn sort of pale yellow and tan. The usually don't have the spots or bands. At least not all over the needles in large amounts.

Rob
 

fore

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You might want to consider talking to someone at your local agricultural office. Perhaps you can get an ID on the specific fungus involved, which in turn could lead to a treatment that is effective against that specific pathogen.

My other thought, are you sure it's a fungus and not just the typical dropping of old needles? Perhaps just occurring early this year due to weather conditions? Or due to the stress of whatever work you've done on this tree?

Chris

This was a burlapped tree from a nursery Chris. I did nothing to it but scrap the clay rootball a bit, and potted it up. It has been a cool summer so far, it was just this last week we finally started hitting the 80's. The weather condition just hasn't been that bad.
 

fore

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"Interior needles" would be older needles, so this is my thought, as well.

Dave, just a couple weeks ago, the interior was solid green with a few old needles dying. Within this time, all the needles exc the last 10" was dead. Even now, the remaining needles are a grayish green color. Not healthy...
 

fore

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Oh no.. This one too...I have been spraying for pests mostly lately. However, I did hit one of my junipers with a fungicide again. The tree just seems to not be doing much, so even though there are not really the strong signs like before, somehow I think that it still might be present.

My thinking has been as long as the tree survives that is the main thing. However, where does this leave someone...Maybe with trees that will never achieve their previous look. Trees where the design is permanently ruined. Some, not styled yet. Sometimes you end up even worse than when you initially started training the tree. It is really up to the individual at that point to decide the direction. After training a tree for 5-7 years plus, now the fungus or whatever hits. Now, we are 3-4 years plus behind. So we are talking about a 10 year plus journey in which the end is very unclear, which it usually is in general.

Things are pretty slow going for junipers around here. I mean, I remember my junipers growing like crazy and getting those long extended shoots from different areas. I don't see much of that going on.

In my opinion fore, although you can still work with all the trees you have and hope for a good outcome. I think your success and enjoyment of bonsai might come in the form of starting a whole new collection. This time, being very aware of what you need to do right off the bat. Also, a new crop of trees might not give you the same problems. I do realize that there is a chance that if you start a new collection the same thing might happen. I also realize that many of us do not have thousands of dollars to throw down to start a whole new collection. However, if you try again and the same thing happens, you will know that it is just nature. However, if it works out for the best, you will finally be able to get some joy out of this hobby and actually be able to do bonsai. I mean, at this point, you can't even do actual bonsai. You can't style, wire etc. because you can't work on unhealthy trees. Basically your involvement with bonsai is keeping these trees surviving. I realize that this is an important part of bonsai. However, it should not be the only part for someone involved in the hobby.

Rob

Absolutely right about that Rob: "I mean, at this point, you can't even do actual bonsai. You can't style, wire etc. because you can't work on unhealthy trees. Basically your involvement with bonsai is keeping these trees surviving" This is exactly how I feel. Going from one crisis to another. If I have to start over...I don't know I would. I've always had a great 'green thumb', but this has made me rethink my horticultural skills.

Funny too how it's only affecting my trees in pots. I have JBP, Larch, and Itoigawa all growing in ground, right next to area with fungus. They are all healthy, very healthy. Interesting at least.

I'm going to today, do an emergency repot like you did. It's an Itoigawa that had scale, which is gone, but the tree continues to deteriorate. EVen fungicides have not worked. At this point, I have absolutely nothing to loose.

And you're right, even if I get past all this, it's set me back yrs. I'll continue to try my best, that's all I can do.
 

fore

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p.s. as mentioned.. It could be die back. However, if the needles have yellow bands around them and/or spots on them, it is a fungus.

Rob

I had needlecast problems last yr on my Ponderosa Pine, so I know what the bands look like, and there are no bands on the dead needles.
 

fore

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I certianly do not want to discourage this option and I wish you luck. Let me tell you what happened to me. It is no seceret to those who know me that I have a problem growing JWP, they contract a fungus and go belly up like a frog on a hot sidewalk. In the beginning when I was researching this issue I took pictures with detailed descriptions of what happens with this particular fungus I have been having to deal with. Not a one of them was interested in discovering what the problem was or seemed to care much about what to do about it.

So I have gone to spraying with Captan, or Daconil in the early spring and this seems to stop it for the most part. With Mugo Pines what you experienced was needle cast. It causes the older needles to turn yellow and drop off all the way back to last years growth. This wont kill your tree but it greatly reduces your cutting back options making those efforts more difficult.

As I noted to Rob Vance, no real banding is seen. I'll take a close up shot of the needles and post them here later.

Thanks everyone for their help/support. I greatly appreciate it!
Chris
 

october

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I went back to check the time frame.. You repotted (so to speak) the very end of May. So it has been like 5-6 weeks. It could be that even though you went very easy on the repot that the tree is just showing stress now. I am basing this on 2 factors. Balled and Burlaped trees have usually already had their root work done when they were pulled from the ground and balled and burlaped. Couple this with the issue that mugos seem to prefer to be repotted in July.

I hope that I am wrong, but when a pine starts showing signs about 5-6 weeks after a root disturbance, it usually is bad news. It is not your fault, you did everything correctly given the situations.

Rob
 

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I'm sorry to see you being so frustrated. If it's only certain types of trees that are problematic for you, maybe you should look to see what is thriving within your collection, and swing the pendulum a bit more to that side. I also think that most of the problems that I've seen you talking about, have been trees that you've gotten from sources, that have either been nursery, or collected trees. I wonder if you would have more fun, if you would look at getting a tree that someone has already established as a bonsai. It seems like you are fighting just to get to the potting stage, (sometimes the hardest part) and don't have any of the enjoyment of the potted bonsai.

Just my thoughts. Don't be too discouraged, it's been hard keeping things healthy for everyone this year it seems.
 
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