Air Layer, before or after leaf hardening?

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I'm looking for everyone's experience. There seems to be a conflicting consensus between the two times.

Based on the scientific facts of how scrapping away the cambium only, it seems that air-layering before or after leaf hardening shouldn't really matter. As the transport of the leafs down to the roots, is the only function being affected. Furthermore, the earlier in the season the procedure is done, will allow longer time for root formation.
 

Dav4

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I'm looking for everyone's experience. There seems to be a conflicting consensus between the two times.

Based on the scientific facts of how scrapping away the cambium only, it seems that air-layering before or after leaf hardening shouldn't really matter. As the transport of the leafs down to the roots, is the only function being affected. Furthermore, the earlier in the season the procedure is done, will allow longer time for root formation.
I've done it both ways successfully. Understanding that new root production won't occur until after the foliage above the layer is photosynthesizing and producing starches says waiting until after the spring flush hardens is the way to go, but having done multiple layers on larger, in ground stock, performing the task when the tree is leafless has it's advantages.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Based on the scientific facts of how scrapping away the cambium only, it seems that air-layering before or after leaf hardening shouldn't really matter
I think it depends on how scientifically factual your plant information is.
In the spring there's a huge increase in auxin, as the foliage needs to expand and widen to get enough surface area. Auxins that do this, can help tissue differentiate into roots.
Later in the year, those levels drop a little since there's no need for aggressive expansion. That's when cytokinins are more at play (relatively) and callus tissue is formed more easily because of that.

Some plants have trouble differentiating from callus to roots, other have such low auxin sensitivity that the timing doesn't matter. So there's a stance on both sides that's correct.
It helps to know what kind of plant you're dealing with and zoning in on making use of their own biological triggers.

Hornbeams for instance, can create whole chunks of callus tissue that hardly differentiates, I would do those in spring before the leaves emerge.
Maples on the other hand are steady producers throughout the year and seem to root better later in the year, because their callus tissue easily differentiates and they produce so much auxin in spring that it even inhibits rooting.
Pines on the other hand, produce huge amounts of auxins but they're not very sensitive to it and their callus tissue doesn't like to differentiate into roots. That's why they're notoriously hard to layer. But they seem to root better at the end of the year, when cytokinins interplay with the late summer auxins. To propagate them vegetatively, cytokinins and auxins need to be applied at a 1:4 ratio.
Oaks do neither and they will probably not layer well at all.

If you want longer root formation, just leave the layer for longer?

My point is that every plant has a different set of rules to the game, and it helps to understand and make use of these rules.
 
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I think it depends on how scientifically factual your plant information is.
In the spring there's a huge increase in auxin, as the foliage needs to expand and widen to get enough surface area. Auxins that do this, can help tissue differentiate into roots.
Later in the year, those levels drop a little since there's no need for aggressive expansion. That's when cytokinins are more at play (relatively) and callus tissue is formed more easily because of that.

Some plants have trouble differentiating from callus to roots, other have such low auxin sensitivity that the timing doesn't matter. So there's a stance on both sides that's correct.
It helps to know what kind of plant you're dealing with and zoning in on making use of their own biological triggers.

Hornbeams for instance, can create whole chunks of callus tissue that hardly differentiates, I would do those in spring before the leaves emerge.
Maples on the other hand are steady producers throughout the year and seem to root better later in the year, because their callus tissue easily differentiates and they produce so much auxin in spring that it even inhibits rooting.
Pines on the other hand, produce huge amounts of auxins but they're not very sensitive to it and their callus tissue doesn't like to differentiate into roots. That's why they're notoriously hard to layer. But they seem to root better at the end of the year, when cytokinins interplay with the late summer auxins. To propagate them vegetatively, cytokinins and auxins need to be applied at a 1:4 ratio.
Oaks do neither and they will probably not layer well at all.

If you want longer root formation, just leave the layer for longer?

My point is that every plant has a different set of rules to the game, and it helps to understand and make use of these rules.
This is the most informative post I have ever read on this subject. Thank you so much!

What about elms?

Do you have any references on the subject, where one could find these differences in different species?
 

gooeytek

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I think it depends on how scientifically factual your plant information is.
In the spring there's a huge increase in auxin, as the foliage needs to expand and widen to get enough surface area. Auxins that do this, can help tissue differentiate into roots.
Later in the year, those levels drop a little since there's no need for aggressive expansion. That's when cytokinins are more at play (relatively) and callus tissue is formed more easily because of that.

Some plants have trouble differentiating from callus to roots, other have such low auxin sensitivity that the timing doesn't matter. So there's a stance on both sides that's correct.
It helps to know what kind of plant you're dealing with and zoning in on making use of their own biological triggers.

Hornbeams for instance, can create whole chunks of callus tissue that hardly differentiates, I would do those in spring before the leaves emerge.
Maples on the other hand are steady producers throughout the year and seem to root better later in the year, because their callus tissue easily differentiates and they produce so much auxin in spring that it even inhibits rooting.
Pines on the other hand, produce huge amounts of auxins but they're not very sensitive to it and their callus tissue doesn't like to differentiate into roots. That's why they're notoriously hard to layer. But they seem to root better at the end of the year, when cytokinins interplay with the late summer auxins. To propagate them vegetatively, cytokinins and auxins need to be applied at a 1:4 ratio.
Oaks do neither and they will probably not layer well at all.

If you want longer root formation, just leave the layer for longer?

My point is that every plant has a different set of rules to the game, and it helps to understand and make use of these rules.

Aside from pinching/pruning/weather, is there any way to influence the level of these plant hormones? Maybe in the form of growing media and/or fertilizer? I'm playing with a few ginkgos when the weather gets warmer.
 

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I want to do an elm to that I’ve been working on. Wasn’t sure the best time but I want it to get a little more healthier before I apply the layer.

I’ve really only done maples. And I’ve done it at many different times. I like doing it once the tree wakes up.
 
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What about cherry? Considering chopping a section off my (nursery) cherry tree my grandparents planted around 15 years ago (still trying to figure out what specific cultivar) the tree has had significant pest issues that ive attempted to save it from but it might die out so i might make a few air layers to get some bonsai material,

Do cherries care about the auxin levels? I know they struggle to callus but they have ease rooting with the assistantance of hormex rooting powder no1
 

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I've done it both ways successfully.
I have also. It all depends on the tree species and the strength of the tree. First, I am assuming we're talking deciduous. With a strong tree that wasn't messed with late the prior year, I seem to have best results at the very end of winter/early spring just as new buds are emerging. I can sometimes get strong roots and can separate as early as 30 days with easy to root species like elms. This applies also to trees in landscape. But if the tree is weak, has been heavily pruned or repotted recently, or is otherwise not 100%, I will wait until buds are fully extended and foliage has hardened and the tree has been allowed to rest after the first push. Note also, I do not pinch or prune anything that I am going to air layer.
 
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I have also. It all depends on the tree species and the strength of the tree. First, I am assuming we're talking deciduous. With a strong tree that wasn't messed with late the prior year, I seem to have best results at the very end of winter/early spring just as new buds are emerging. I can sometimes get strong roots and can separate as early as 30 days with easy to root species like elms. This applies also to trees in landscape. But if the tree is weak, has been heavily pruned or repotted recently, or is otherwise not 100%, I will wait until buds are fully extended and foliage has hardened and the tree has been allowed to rest after the first push. Note also, I do not pinch or prune anything that I am going to air layer.
You say depending on species. What has been your experience with Maples?

As per Guy_Wires details above, Maples do better after leaf hardening. JMaples are pretty well what I'm most interested in, as I have several grafted cultivars that I'll be layering in the next few years.
 

Bonsai Nut

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It gets complicated with Japanese maples because some cultivars do not reliably air-layer. Do you have a cultivar name?
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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What about cherry? Considering chopping a section off my (nursery) cherry tree my grandparents planted around 15 years ago (still trying to figure out what specific cultivar) the tree has had significant pest issues that ive attempted to save it from but it might die out so i might make a few air layers to get some bonsai material,

Do cherries care about the auxin levels? I know they struggle to callus but they have ease rooting with the assistantance of hormex rooting powder no1
Cherries do well early in the year. So I suggest layering those before the leaves emerge, then when the leaves have hardened off they should have roots (about 8 weeks after leaf emergence).
 
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It gets complicated with Japanese maples because some cultivars do not reliably air-layer. Do you have a cultivar name?
Ya I know, I tried a dissectum last season and only got two roots (I layered at bud break).. I could have left it over the winter but I just abandoned it. I've heard they don't do well on their own roots anyways, and my location can have cold winters.

No, I have no idea what specific cultivars they are.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Alright so once last freeze is over so I don't cause damage? So maybe march?
They flower before they push leaves, so during flowering.
Any frost in that time will be light, not enough to do real damage.

As a matter of fact, I'm starting to wonder how much damage frost would actually do to most plants, because I'm more and more convinced that anything above -5°C isn't a problem for most plants.
 
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They flower before they push leaves, so during flowering.
Any frost in that time will be light, not enough to do real damage.

As a matter of fact, I'm starting to wonder how much damage frost would actually do to most plants, because I'm more and more convinced that anything above -5°C isn't a problem for most plants.
Thank you!!
 

Bonsai Nut

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No, I have no idea what specific cultivars they are.
Well, you will know soon enough after after you try :) I am assuming we are talking a branch, right? (and not the whole tree?)

If I am uncertain I would wait until the new foliage has pushed and hardened and the tree has paused (late spring). You're up in Ontario so you have shorter summers than I do, so I wouldn't want to wait too long in the season if I still wanted to separate the air-layer and get it established before the onset of fall. But I have less experience with Japanese maples in general and have only air-layered a couple.
 

BrightsideB

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What about layering right at the graft union? I was thinking of trying that on a dissectum I have.
 

WNC Bonsai

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They flower before they push leaves, so during flowering.
Any frost in that time will be light, not enough to do real damage.

As a matter of fact, I'm starting to wonder how much damage frost would actually do to most plants, because I'm more and more convinced that anything above -5°C isn't a problem for most plants.
I wish I knew that was true, it would save a lot of back breaking moving trees back into the garage when temps drop. However do you mean before or after they break dormancy?
 
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