Questions from a well-researched newbie

CliffracerX

Yamadori
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Location
Blacksburg, VA
USDA Zone
6b
This is going to be a wall of text, some I'm going to get a TLDR; out of the way first.
==TLDR==
Am a newbie to bonsai with way too much free time of late, have spent the past couple weeks doing naught but researching information about making bonsai from seedlings & how best to care for maple bonsai specifically, have access to a vast array of young maple trees (were from last year's seeds that fell on the lawn, sprouted earlier this year in river rock surrounding the house) and am hoping to maybe try and use them as raw material to eventually shape into some Kerbalized bonsai down the line - nothing too fancy. Extensive picture sharing below, and can try and get more if asked. My ideal saplings are those that appear to be descendants of a large & beloved maple on my property I believe is likely either an Acer Rubrum Trilobum (the three-lobed Red Maple), or some kind of Trident Maple.

I am keenly aware of the drawbacks of maples (being outside-only, requiring a winter dormancy period w/ frost protection - which will definitely be necessary since it can drop to well below freezing here, Acer Rubrums in particular being notorious for having large leaves, etc), and of starting from very young seedlings as opposed to a prebonsai or even a cutting (namely that their chance of survival is lowered, and it will be years before they're ready for shaping - it's not like we're gonna have a whole lot going on for what may very well be years to come thanks to COVID-19), and am under no illusions that things are gonna go well at first, even considering research time.

My main questions are, A, help with identifying what species these actually are, B, when I should try and transplant them from the river rock, and C, what they should go into, soil and potting-wise, with the final question, D, being what my game plan should be once they're transplanted.

==THE TOO LONG PART==
So, first things first: a bit of backstory. I'm part of a multigenerational household that moved last year, and there's a massive old maple tree down the hill from our house that everyone here absolutely adores - we've taken to calling it Totoro's Tree as it's very reminiscent of the massive old oak that Totoro lived under in the Studio Ghibli film My Neighbour Totoro. It's the only one of its kind on the property, and it, like all the other maples, dropped a massive number of spinners last year, some of which sprouted this spring in the river rock surrounding our house. It's a beautiful old tree that has brought our family so much joy, and I want to make sure at least some of its descendants ultimately find a good home - be that as bonsai or transplanted to other locations on the property.

When I saw the first of them, my thoughts immediately went to "oh man, those are begging to become bonsai", and as COVID-19 has escalated & free time has become overwhelming, I finally started digging into the world of bonsai to try and actually figure out what the heck I'd even do to make some of the little seedlings into bonsai.
It's been a wildly informative process that's very much made my head spin from time to time (spending every waking moment obsessively researching things is never good for your mental health, kids, don't do that) and I've gleaned about all I think I can from just obsessively googling things & need to move on to the part where I dive straight on in to the bonsai-making process and maybe ask for some help along the way so as to give these little trees the best chance of eventually becoming something beautiful.
With that out of the way, moving on to the first question:

==WHAT TREES ARE THESE==
Based on their three-lobed structure and rather jaggedy edges, I believe that Totoro's Tree & many of the saplings in the river rock on its side of the house are Acer Rubrum Trilobum, the three-lobed variant of the Red Maple. That said, the wide lobes, especially on Totoro's Tree, do suggest that it could be a Trident Maple of some kind, it's just that the edges are very jaggedy in a way Tridents don't usually seem to be. Some pictures I've taken w/ my phone, first two being from yesterday, rest are today's, trying to get better side-on views of the various saplings. Done some note-taking in the alt-text, as well - make sure to read it for context.
Top view of one of the most impressive saplings.View of some of the leaves of Totoro's Tree.
(From today)
A side view of what I believe is the central sapling from yesterday's photo.  It's likely drooping from the heat and direct sunlight.The small sapling that was to the side in yesterday's photo, plus another one near it.The sapling on the right in the previous photo.Some shaded saplings closer to Totoro's Tree.  Of note here are the small spots on the leaves - some across the property are beginning to develop them.

Given that things are rapidly getting drier & hotter, and that these see extensive sunlight (the house doesn't shade them until pretty late in the day - they probably see the sun from sunrise to more or less 4:00 PM), and are in river rock as opposed to actual soil, I'm worried they won't survive much longer on their own, leading into question #2:

==WHAT SHOULD I DO WITH THEM?==
I know that common wisdom for older maples, and bonsai in general, is not to transplant until springtime, but I'm not sure these will survive that long, and they're not that old - they came from last year's seed drops, and came up earlier this year, meaning they're probably not more than 6 months old at most, likely less. I'm also aware that they don't have nearly the trunk thickness required to be used as bonsai, even if aiming to be kept very short (my goal is around 6-8", which I understand requires maybe an inch or two of trunk thickness - I am aware the leaves will be pretty large by comparison, not concerned about that aesthetics-wise at least), and so will need to spend time growing their trunks out further.

My most immediate concern is keeping them alive, which given their droop in the afternoon sun today has me worried they might not make it unless transplanted soon or otherwise protected. Given they've survived this long in the river rock I think that's probably a somewhat less pressing concern - they just need not to get roasted by summertime & stay hydrated long enough to survive. Presuming a transplant is advisable & safe, that leads into question #3:

==WHAT SHOULD I TRANSPLANT THEM INTO?==
I understand that small trees like this need some time to grow their trunks out before moving into a smaller bonsai pot, so I figure large pots are an immediate necessity. Beyond that, I've seen a lot of different opinions about soil mixes, especially for trees this young - regular Miracle Gro potting soil, 100% Perlite, 100% Pumice, etc. Given that time may be short, I'd ideally like to use soil that can be found at a big box store nearby, like Lowes or Home Depot, where selections for soil are relatively minimal (mainly Miracle Gro), and similar for potting. Bear in mind my immediate concern is, again, keeping them alive - I don't expect to be making any gnarled, ancient-looking Honey, I Shrunk The Maple Trees anytime soon, so if short-term soil and potting choices keep them more "comically undersized maple with full-size leaves" than anything else, long as they survive, I consider that an absolute win. With that in mind, question #4:

==WHAT SHOULD MY LONG-TERM GAME PLAN BE?==
EDIT: Having connection troubles, this section got eaten during the drafting process. To be replaced ASAP.
 

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I realize posting a reply like this is not good etiquette at *all*, but: mods, is there any chance this can be left hidden w/ edits enabled until I can actually fix the main post? Was working on trying to update it from my phone, but the 20 minute edit window closed before I actually submitted the changes.

If re-enabling edits isn’t doable for weird software management reasons, any chance this & the original post could get deleted instead for a take two?

(Also, note about why I had to try and do it from my phone: anything on my home wifi can’t get to the site at all right now, it times out, and was throwing 500 Internal Server Errors on attempts to post, and subsequently update the broken version. Did I trip an anti-DDOS system or something?)
 
I don’t know anything about the moderation or editing.
But,
welcome aboard!
It will be hard for anybody to give any advice about harvesting and care of what look to be Acer rubrum seedlings, other than
Let them grow.
Without knowing where you are, zone is enough.
 
I realize posting a reply like this is not good etiquette at *all*, but: mods, is there any chance this can be left hidden w/ edits enabled until I can actually fix the main post? Was working on trying to update it from my phone, but the 20 minute edit window closed before I actually submitted the changes.

If re-enabling edits isn’t doable for weird software management reasons, any chance this & the original post could get deleted instead for a take two?

(Also, note about why I had to try and do it from my phone: anything on my home wifi can’t get to the site at all right now, it times out, and was throwing 500 Internal Server Errors on attempts to post, and subsequently update the broken version. Did I trip an anti-DDOS system or something?)

Best thing to do is to copy and paste the original post into a reply post... and then when you are happy with it we will go back and delete the original.
 
@Bonsai Nut
I'll see to getting a polished version up in a reply post shortly, TYVM for the quick response! Not sure why but I can access the site from my desktop now - there anything I should do/debug info I should grab if I get locked out again?

@Crawforde
Thanks for the welcome!
I'm a few miles out from Blacksburg, VA, if that's of any help.
 
Hands to the air beckoning your advance, wanderer! The Woody Dwarves are at the whetstone, readying the instruments. Follow the fireflies.. they know the Tiny Forest best.

Ehhh I had more typed up.. I got caught up in the “dorothy tornado” when your thread was first altered.

Looks like Rubrum to me. (But I “swing wildly”) ;)

I also transplant seedlings and saplings which are that young all year round. (This is incorrect, As i’ve said, I swing wild ((I DO consider lunar patterns when performing THESE specific opetations)))

I also know that, I myself have a little slew of “non-ideal” Acers that personally bring me great joy raising in containers and I do NOT consider any less valuable (This point WILL get argued from time to time.... wild swingin’)

I blew through earlier.. I heard you introduce yourself.... I turned and began to speak... and you were gone. 🤣🤣🤣

The overall “jist” of what I’m trying to portray here is;

Pleasure to make your acquaintance.

🤓
 
Red maple, Acer rubrum my guess

Here’s (image) an adventitious one I keep watering, impressed it’s just thriving in some wintering top-mulch I just threw in this pot rather than straight onto the deck while working on who knows..neglect it..keeps going


these are tough trees
I’ve heard the rare title of “native invasive” regarding their growth and fast emergence in certain habits -a good reason to not clearcut an oak/hickory forest for example.

If you want to keep them I’d carefully shovel ~6“ under and around em’, disturbing roots as little as possible, and place in/on/around well draining soil in pot or ground...or pine mulch??

D2EBD517-1285-4BE6-9562-E6DFA1D6EB06.jpeg
 
these are tough trees
I’ve heard the rare title of “native invasive” regarding their growth and fast emergence in certain habits

Abso-dang-lutely!

You should see ‘em “take over” a wetland/swamp area...

It actually ends up looking fairly “eerie”.

🤓
 
Thank you for the warm welcomes, all!

I’m glad to hear it’s almost definitely an Acer Rubrum - means my research wasn’t all for naught, haha.

@HorseloverFat
I’ve seen mention here a couple times that the phase of the moon plays a role in transplant healthiness, but could never follow the details; ELI5, what’s that all about?

@TN_Jim
That tree is gorgeous!
I’m glad to hear they’re tough little guys - makes me significantly less anxious I’ll off them by accident through bad soil choice or the likes.
 
@CliffracerX , If you’re lookin’ for more insight into lunar patterns, Sorce is an avid practitioner with experience and examples. (He’ll be along shortly, even WITHOUT the summons.. you just watch)
I haven’t been “doing this” enough seasons to mark any kind to “set” personal calendar/routine.

But if it’s just textbook style information you’re after, there’s tons out there. Especially when searching within the realm of Feng Shui reading/teachings pertaining to “gardens”..

If you peruse long enough in the “please share your photos” thread, i posted a few excerpts from a similar reading AS WELL AS a link to purchase the book. Among these excerpts is a diagram...

Truth be told it’ll just be easier to search lunar planting schedules.. ;)

🤓
 
Because I seem to keep tripping something on the server by trying to actually post the whole post, I'm just going to finish the last sections up by hand here - none of the edits in the main section were that important, mostly trimming out some cruft, correcting that the tree in My Neighbour Totoro was a *camphor* tree (whoops), and jotting down what info I know about Acer Rubrum Trilobum care specifically, which I can retroactively note here:

From my understanding, Acer Rubrum Trilobum wants a fair bit of light, wetter (and slightly acidic) soil, regular feeding during spring/summer (and fairly regular during fall), and really doesn't do well with wiring as it'll scar easily. Like all maples it needs to stay outdoors, and get a winter dormancy period, though protection from extreme cold is a necessity as heavy frost could ravage the root system. It will also likely want a deeper pot than other trees of a similar height as the roots tend more towards deepness than wideness. I also understand they're not a super popular variety of maple to make bonsai out of due to their massive leaves & general increased persnickitiness as compared to, say, a Japanese or Trident maple.

==WHAT SHOULD MY LONG-TERM GAME PLAN BE?==
I know that freshly collected trees generally need some time in shade to recover from the shock, and we do have a screen porch that still gets plenty of indirect light & fresh air without much, if any direct sunlight. However, I'd be worried about it being too dark for them in there, and not sure where else would work to put them - though we do have an old AeroGarden that no longer sees use & could probably be used as an emergency growth light to keep them going until they're strong enough to return to more direct sunlight.

Beyond that, I know they're going to need time to thicken their trunks, and that's more or less the extent of it. My research has mainly been focusing on how to get these little guys someplace safe where they can survive & grow until they're better-suited to shaping into proper bonsai, with not a ton in the middle phases of them maturing a bit, or how to style & shape them so they'll stay small.

Worth noting that my ideal end-goal for the trees themselves is more or less "a trunk with a capsule of canopy on top" that's around 6-8 inches tall, as in the first picture linked here
(would link directly but the attachment is being funky, and I can't provide proper credit as it appears both the site I found it on, and the one it linked to have been claimed by bitrot.)

Making something with more motion/multiple distinct canopies, something root-over-rocks, etc, seems like a long-term goal for a future batch of trees once I've got some experience under my belt & can be a bit more confident I won't kill them by accident by failing in regular ordinary maintenance, let alone fancy styling.

==FUTURE PLANS==
In whatever case, I'll try and keep this thread updated with progress, be it ending in tragedy or success. Hopefully jot down as much information as I can here too, so that some future newbie will have an easier time finding out the information they need to get started & won't have to research until their head spins, 'least not quite as much as I did.

To anyone who does join in here to help out - thank you for lending an eye & an ear to my silly experiments in the fine art of tiny trees!

==CONNECTION PROBLEM NOTES==
This section is basically for @Bonsai Nut's benefit only as it pertains to weird server connection issues & therefor has little to no relation to the fine art of tiny trees.

So, from what I can tell, either the sheer length of my post, something in the latter two sections here, or some combination of both, seemed like it must have been tripping a server security system - I'd get the XenForo "your action could not be completed" message, check the console & see a regular old POST response indicating an internal server error, then any attempt to connect to the site from my home network times out for more or less the next hour or so, like a temporary IP blacklisting. Total post length was around 10k characters, and there was a plaintext link to an archived site talking about Acer Rubrum care w/ a gorgeous picture of a 6" Acer Rubrum bonsai that's something of a touchstone image for my long-term goals - I've now moved that link to proper BBCode to see if it helps any.
 
Are you sure you want to care for random maple seedlings for decades? To me it wouldnt be worth it. My only reason to care for seedlings is when:
-all the yamadori have taproots (Hawthorn)
-there are no yamadori or raw material Im willing to pay for of its kind (species/variety)
-the goal is a very small bonsai

When I started I scoured wikipedia and other websites for interesting tree genuses, species and varieties. I can give you some maple recommendations:
Acer palmatum
Acer buergerianum
Acer campestre (nice yamadoris where I live)
Acer monspessulanum (small leaf subspecies)

My soil recommendation is evergreen forest top soil with some volcanic grid for extra micronutrients
 
none of the edits in the main section were that important, mostly trimming out some cruft

Good to hear, Not just because there is less editing work, but because you need this type of "let go" to be successful at bonsai.

Cheers for that!

People who don't Repot to the moon Repot with my ass in their face! Lol!

I have been watching this pattern of root growth during the Waning moon for a while. 9 times out of ten when you see a new root, either from the basket side, or the drain holes, or under some moss, it's during a waning moon. Then almost without fail, towards the end of it, they go brown at the tip and you don't see them till the next waning moon.

The important thing to remember about these cycles is they overlap, so it not only top growth during the waxing moon, and bottom growth during the Waning moon. This "overlap" should be minimal and if it's great, I believe you have the tree confused. Cutting, repotting at the wrong time causes the tree to act, which is normal, but it disrupts the cycle.

Like flicking a spinning quarter, we want to see it keep going. (Working at proper times)

If you flick it wrong, you still have a quarter, it's just not spinning anymore, and you stand the possibility of losing it down the sewer, in the grass, etc.
(Working at innappro times)

@fredman you know why I like Peter Warren?
He understands this 2% mentality I have been sharing with the Sorceress. She is looking for an instant cure, but I tell her work on these 2%'s to build a whole.

This, Moon Gardening, is another 2%...eh...maybe 10%!

Anyway. Just as PW explains how using Danu and the Microbials gives anecdotal, unexplained, unquantifiable effects, moon gardening is the same.

Once it is part of your regimen and feeling, you begin to feel how things get out of place without that 2%.

Sorce
 
the tree in the OPs pic is a Norway maple. Extremely common landscape tree here in Va. Not very good bonsai material. Leaves tend to remain HUGE, much larger than acer rubrum.
 
Because I seem to keep tripping something on the server by trying to actually post the whole post, I'm just going to finish the last sections up by hand here - none of the edits in the main section were that important, mostly trimming out some cruft, correcting that the tree in My Neighbour Totoro was a *camphor* tree (whoops), and jotting down what info I know about Acer Rubrum Trilobum care specifically, which I can retroactively note here:

From my understanding, Acer Rubrum Trilobum wants a fair bit of light, wetter (and slightly acidic) soil, regular feeding during spring/summer (and fairly regular during fall), and really doesn't do well with wiring as it'll scar easily. Like all maples it needs to stay outdoors, and get a winter dormancy period, though protection from extreme cold is a necessity as heavy frost could ravage the root system. It will also likely want a deeper pot than other trees of a similar height as the roots tend more towards deepness than wideness. I also understand they're not a super popular variety of maple to make bonsai out of due to their massive leaves & general increased persnickitiness as compared to, say, a Japanese or Trident maple.

==WHAT SHOULD MY LONG-TERM GAME PLAN BE?==
I know that freshly collected trees generally need some time in shade to recover from the shock, and we do have a screen porch that still gets plenty of indirect light & fresh air without much, if any direct sunlight. However, I'd be worried about it being too dark for them in there, and not sure where else would work to put them - though we do have an old AeroGarden that no longer sees use & could probably be used as an emergency growth light to keep them going until they're strong enough to return to more direct sunlight.

Beyond that, I know they're going to need time to thicken their trunks, and that's more or less the extent of it. My research has mainly been focusing on how to get these little guys someplace safe where they can survive & grow until they're better-suited to shaping into proper bonsai, with not a ton in the middle phases of them maturing a bit, or how to style & shape them so they'll stay small.

Worth noting that my ideal end-goal for the trees themselves is more or less "a trunk with a capsule of canopy on top" that's around 6-8 inches tall, as in the first picture linked here
(would link directly but the attachment is being funky, and I can't provide proper credit as it appears both the site I found it on, and the one it linked to have been claimed by bitrot.)

Making something with more motion/multiple distinct canopies, something root-over-rocks, etc, seems like a long-term goal for a future batch of trees once I've got some experience under my belt & can be a bit more confident I won't kill them by accident by failing in regular ordinary maintenance, let alone fancy styling.

==FUTURE PLANS==
In whatever case, I'll try and keep this thread updated with progress, be it ending in tragedy or success. Hopefully jot down as much information as I can here too, so that some future newbie will have an easier time finding out the information they need to get started & won't have to research until their head spins, 'least not quite as much as I did.

To anyone who does join in here to help out - thank you for lending an eye & an ear to my silly experiments in the fine art of tiny trees!

==CONNECTION PROBLEM NOTES==
This section is basically for @Bonsai Nut's benefit only as it pertains to weird server connection issues & therefor has little to no relation to the fine art of tiny trees.

So, from what I can tell, either the sheer length of my post, something in the latter two sections here, or some combination of both, seemed like it must have been tripping a server security system - I'd get the XenForo "your action could not be completed" message, check the console & see a regular old POST response indicating an internal server error, then any attempt to connect to the site from my home network times out for more or less the next hour or so, like a temporary IP blacklisting. Total post length was around 10k characters, and there was a plaintext link to an archived site talking about Acer Rubrum care w/ a gorgeous picture of a 6" Acer Rubrum bonsai that's something of a touchstone image for my long-term goals - I've now moved that link to proper BBCode to see if it helps any.
FWIW, the future goal of a tree 6-8 inches tall is probably out of the question. The leaves and branching on this species are not geared to make a tree that small. Add another ten to twelve inches maybe...Leaves won't reduce all that well and internode length make for a larger tree as the goal. That means in-ground growing for a decade or two to develop a substantial trunk big enough to support the visual weight of the larger leaves and additional height...
 
@Rivian
I'm okay with them not ever being perfect Bonsai, or necessarily even good ones. Sorta like the old quote of "There are many like it, but this one is mine.", except more..."There are many better than it, but this one is mine." - like I'd said in the main post (I think), I consider this first project to be a victory if I can keep 'em alive in the first place, even if they never become much more than TN_Jim's gorgeous pine-mulch-dwelling spiral seedling.

Acer Rubrums are what I seem to have the most access to, are proven to be tough little buggers (which is good for them not falling victim to Newbie Greenthumb Death Syndrome, a significant worry of mine since my track record with plants isn't the best), and can clearly be made into something beautiful, even if they'll never quite reach the "Honey, I Shunk The Gnarled Ancient Beautiful Tree of Awesomeness" level other species can.

@sorce
While lunar cycles being involved in plants is definitely still news to me, it's good to hear some more specifics - the only thing I'm not clear on is, with enhanced root growth in mind, is there any particular point in the lunar cycle that makes the most sense for transplanting to maximize their ability to recover any damaged root structure, other than sometime during the waning moon - and, given that they're growing in river rock & may not much, if any shoveling of dirt around the roots (meaning they hopefully won't suffer much actual root loss when getting transplanted), should that play a role in deciding when to transplant?

@rockm
I'm assuming you're referring to Totoro's Tree from the original post, or is there a possibility the seedlings are Norway Maples too? In either case, it does complicate matters a bit - I have *no* idea where the seedlings are coming from if they're Acer Rubrums - though it means my research on keeping & caring for them is still accurate at least - and if they're Norway Maples as well, there's no good way to avoid leaves the size of your fist, which bodes quite ill for bonsai-ing them in any form. I'll probably need to do more research on them, regardless.
 
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